Is Bonsai Mirai Live Worth $300/year?

[brewmeister83]

This is just an oversimplification to help us remember what we can get away with in a given amount of time with different species in terms of repotting, foliage reduction etc. believe me, Ryan’s not going to go out and write a botany textbook with these terms, he knows it’s an oversimplification. They’re just practical terms to help us understand how to approach bonsai in the day to day.

And I know Ryan knows his stuff, and I realize it's an oversimplification, trust me I respect the man and what he can do. Just having a bit of fun with how much of a simplification it is.

The thing you have to understand

The thing I have to understand? Buddy, relax, no need to try and school me, I'm not some first year noob who thinks I can prune all the foliage off a juniper like I can a maple and expect it to survive. Just like how I treat my spruces and hawthorns differently at different times of the year, almost like they're two different types of plants with different growth systems that you shouldn't lump together. You see what I did there?

 

[wireme]

So... pine’s strength comes from the roots, juniper strength comes from the foliage, and elongating species strength comes from their vascular systems.

I can’t help but be a bit suspicious about this strength thing. I know it’s quite widely accepted as true but where does it come from? Is this some kind of horticultural fact or just hypothesis based on observation of how they seem to respond to different actions or??

 

[brewmeister83]

I can’t help but be a bit suspicious about this strength thing. I know it’s quite widely accepted as true but where does it come from? Is this some kind of horticultural fact or just hypothesis based on observation of how they seem to respond to different actions or??

I've often wondered that myself - because while you can cut all the roots off a juni and the foliage will regrow it if given proper care (i.e. - strength in the foliage) - the same can be said about air layering most if not all broadleaf material. Conversely you can hack all the foliage off a broadleaf with good strong roots and you will get new growth, but the same can not be said of pines which are supposedly root strong, so how "root strong" are they exactly? At least, I've never seen a pine sprout from a stump before. But if memory serves me right some redwoods do sprout back from stumps - one of the few if only conifer that does - does that meant they're more "root strong" than pines?

(and yes, before anyone tries explaining to my why pines don't do that, I already know why, I just said it for the sake of argument as an example)

edit: just had a thought - maybe the whole "pines strength is in the roots" thing is just another way of saying they're root sensitive and don't like having them messed with that often - because I know that to be true. Maybe someone can chime in whether this is horticulturally addressed and explained by people such as Ryan Neil or if it's "widely accepted" like @wireme said and it's just repeated by multiple people in bonsai circles.

 

[TN_Jim]

Spruce, fir, etc... these are classified as elongating species in Ryan Neil’s classification system. In fact that’s more what he’s referring to when he says elongating species. When he talks about deciduous he usually just says deciduous but has said that they can be viewed as elongating species on some level.

The thing you have to understand about his terminology with this stuff is that all this oversimplified classification system is referring to is where does the strength/energy lie in different species. It’s just a way to keep that information in your head in a simpler way. So... pine’s strength comes from the roots, juniper strength comes from the foliage, and elongating species strength comes from their vascular systems.

This is just an oversimplification to help us remember what we can get away with in a given amount of time with different species in terms of repotting, foliage reduction etc. believe me, Ryan’s not going to go out and write a botany textbook with these terms, he knows it’s an oversimplification. They’re just practical terms to help us understand how to approach bonsai in the day to day.

Well alright..this is kind of interesting & revealing to the subject matter.. However, it is still confusing to me, because I do think of things from a botany/taxonomy standpoint...it's like learning a new language of organizing common names with blurry taxonomic stuff.

So when he says 'pine'..he is referring only to genus Pinus? Because, to me, spruce, fir and even larch are pines of a sort (not just Pinus) because they are in the family Pinaceae.

Same for trees in Taxaceae (Yew) and Cupressaceae (Juniper, Redwood, Cypress)...how do these (other than..only Juniperus (is this genus the only "Juniper"!?)) fit in? Are yew, redwood, and cypress also elongating because they are not in the genera Juniperus or Pinus?

 

[Johnnyd]

Saw this yesterday and it got me thinking, but before I commented I figured I should watch at least a couple of Ryan's free vids on bonsai mirai and see how they compare to other free videos on youtube. And I gotta say, good vids, but for me it was pretty rough... Don't get me wrong - no slight intended against Ryan Neil, he is a wealth of information even in his free vids and produces some beautiful trees, but for me (as a viewer) his personality just didn't "click" with me, so I know as good as his other vids may be or what info he may drop in a paid vid, I would have a hard time sitting through them - it kind of reminded me of when I was forcing myself to sit through certain lectures in college. Again, nothing against Ryan, this is purely my personality just not "jiving" with his and/or his delivery.

So I though to myself "Is there anyone else like Ryan Neil who is formally Japanese trained and puts out free vids and paid lectures (preferably less than $300) that I do get into and enjoy watching?" Well, I wasn't sure about the paid part, but there's someone I've been watching on youtube for years who puts out really informative vids that I do enjoy watching. Heck, there have been many times I've gone back and watched the same vid or vlog, not just for the info, but because I found them enjoyable to watch - the vids are relaxed and groovy/funky and his demeanor is calm and laid back but still assertive and professional in his delivery - this works for me big time. So I checked around and found that he does have paid lecture series and specie specific masterclass vids on his site - for $20-60. Sure, not the same "live" format as Ryan, and he doesn't have an extensive catalogue of specie videos yet, but $25 for specific seasonal care and development techniques for juniper from a guy who worked in a Japanese bonsai nursery for the better part of a decade - now that I can do. Plus, I've watched his youtube channel for years, and buying his courses, in my mind at least, would be a nice "thank you" for years of enjoyable content.

I haven't mentioned this other person's name out of respect for Ryan Neil since this thread is about his online course, but If you are curious who I am talking about just search "$200K bonsai" on youtube. Cool demonstration vid showing the caliber of trees this guy can work on.

Definitely agree about $200k guy. His pricing is friendly and he has a calm relaxed attitude. Ryan obviously knows his stuff but just not my cup of tea.

 

[JudyB]

Well alright..this is kind of interesting & revealing to the subject matter.. However, it is still confusing to me, because I do think of things from a botany/taxonomy standpoint...it's like learning a new language of organizing common names with blurry taxonomic stuff.

So when he says 'pine'..he is referring only to genus Pinus? Because, to me, spruce, fir and even larch are pines of a sort (not just Pinus) because they are in the family Pinaceae.

Same for trees in Taxaceae (Yew) and Cupressaceae (Juniper, Redwood, Cypress)...how do these (other than..only Juniperus (is this genus the only "Juniper"!?)) fit in? Are yew, redwood, and cypress also elongating because they are not in the genera Juniperus or Pinus?

I think that sometimes simplification can actually be very confusing. Better to be precise and complex when the application could be critical when applied incorrectly.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I can’t help but be a bit suspicious about this strength thing. I know it’s quite widely accepted as true but where does it come from? Is this some kind of horticultural fact or just hypothesis based on observation of how they seem to respond to different actions or??

That’s literally what I wrote, it’s just based on practical practice.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

That’s literally what I wrote, it’s just based on practical practice related to bonsai.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Well alright..this is kind of interesting & revealing to the subject matter.. However, it is still confusing to me, because I do think of things from a botany/taxonomy standpoint...it's like learning a new language of organizing common names with blurry taxonomic stuff.

So when he says 'pine'..he is referring only to genus Pinus? Because, to me, spruce, fir and even larch are pines of a sort (not just Pinus) because they are in the family Pinaceae.

Same for trees in Taxaceae (Yew) and Cupressaceae (Juniper, Redwood, Cypress)...how do these (other than..only Juniperus (is this genus the only "Juniper"!?)) fit in? Are yew, redwood, and cypress also elongating because they are not in the genera Juniperus or Pinus?

Again, it’s not about taxonomy, it’s an oversimplification of how Different tree species behave in bonsai culture.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

The thing I have to understand? Buddy, relax, no need to try and school me, I'm not some first year noob who thinks I can prune all the foliage off a juniper like I can a maple and expect it to survive.

Oh my bad, I meant “the thing that yew have to understand”. Like the collective yew. Yew dig? Good thing you’re not a noob, I hear they don’t take kindly to those types round these parts. ?

 

[M. Frary]

Spruce, fir, etc... these are classified as elongating species in Ryan Neil’s classification system. In fact that’s more what he’s referring to when he says elongating species. When he talks about deciduous he usually just says deciduous but has said that they can be viewed as elongating species on some level.

The thing you have to understand about his terminology with this stuff is that all this oversimplified classification system is referring to is where does the strength/energy lie in different species. It’s just a way to keep that information in your head in a simpler way. So... pine’s strength comes from the roots, juniper strength comes from the foliage, and elongating species strength comes from their vascular systems.

This is just an oversimplification to help us remember what we can get away with in a given amount of time with different species in terms of repotting, foliage reduction etc. believe me, Ryan’s not going to go out and write a botany textbook with these terms, he knows it’s an oversimplification. They’re just practical terms to help us understand how to approach bonsai in the day to day.

Maybe old Ryan needs trees that aren't juniper and pine simplified for him.
You don't treat larch like elms.
But he has them in the same "elongating" category.
Hmmm.

 

[TN_Jim]

Again, it’s not about taxonomy, it’s an oversimplification of how Different tree species behave in bonsai culture.

I understand that. I will rephrase my inquiry..is this how you would organize trees according to R. Neil?:

Strength from roots
Pines: only the genus Pinus

Strength from foliage
Junipers: only the genus Juniperus

Strength from vascular system (a.k.a. elongation)
Cypress (Taxodium spp.; Chamaecyparis spp.; Cupressus spp.)

Cedar (Cedrus spp.)

Fir (Abies spp.)

Larch (Larix spp.)

Redwood (Sequoia spp. / Metasequoia)

Spruce (Picea spp.)

Yew (Taxus spp.)

Cryptomeria spp.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Maybe old Ryan needs trees that aren't juniper and pine simplified for him.
You don't treat larch like elms.
But he has them in the same "elongating" category.
Hmmm.

LOL. The same argument could be thrown at treating all pines the same because they’re in the same category. But we all know better. I get it. Playing dumb is fun when we want to throw mud or are too stubborn to let in and fully consider new ideas. I do it all the time ?

 

[TN_Jim]

I may be out of bounds here, but I would guess that Mr. Neil is treating, Chamaecyparis spp.; Cupressus spp., as "Juniper"..even though they are commonly called, "Cypress."

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I understand that. I will rephrase my inquiry..is this how you would organize trees according to R. Neil?:

Strength from roots
Pines: only the genus Pinus

Strength from foliage
Junipers: only the genus Juniperus

Strength from vascular system (a.k.a. elongation)
Cypress (Taxodium spp.; Chamaecyparis spp.; Cupressus spp.)

Cedar (Cedrus spp.)

Fir (Abies spp.)

Larch (Larix spp.)

Redwood (Sequoia spp. / Metasequoia)

Spruce (Picea spp.)

Yew (Taxus spp.)

Cryptomeria spp.

Yea that’s along the lines of how Ryan would group those. Not totally sure about some of the species you put under elongating. I was just trying to lend more specific information about his terminology because there seemed to be some confusio that he treats maples and spruce the same exact way or some nonsense ?.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

someone with a tier 3 membership could ask this in their Q&A no?

 

[Djtommy]

Maybe old Ryan needs trees that aren't juniper and pine simplified for him.
You don't treat larch like elms.
But he has them in the same "elongating" category.
Hmmm.

He does not have them in same category

 

[ihaveaspaceship]

I look forward to Tuesdays. I only have one full season under my belt, so I take in all the information I can get. I am, however, only subbed for tier 2.

If your are new to the hobby, this website and Ryan Neil streams are a goldmine!

 

[TN_Jim]

...golden streams¡!

 

[Paulpash]

I understand that. I will rephrase my inquiry..is this how you would organize trees according to R. Neil?:

Strength from roots
Pines: only the genus Pinus

Strength from foliage
Junipers: only the genus Juniperus

Strength from vascular system (a.k.a. elongation)
Cypress (Taxodium spp.; Chamaecyparis spp.; Cupressus spp.)

Cedar (Cedrus spp.)

Fir (Abies spp.)

Larch (Larix spp.)

Redwood (Sequoia spp. / Metasequoia)

Spruce (Picea spp.)

Yew (Taxus spp.)

Cryptomeria spp.

You've obviously never done root work on a Cedar lol .....