dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
i use it pure for deciduous, but in a 50/50 ratio for pines, depending on development.
I'd like to discuss Akadama/lava .....again...
- Thread starter Mike Corazzi
- Start date
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
For the professionals i know, there are worldclass trees growing for 30+ years in pot in Belgium (wet climate and frost in winter) on akadama, for maples in pure akadama. For some trees when calculating some generations easy 100+ years of akadama. The original core of the rootbal is akadama and hardly ever needs to be "bare rooted" for the reason of compacted akadama. The pines and junipers are in a mix with akadama and are good for at least 7 years if you want. We live in different climate and i'm not against using other growing media, modern substrate if you want. Here we have not found a better alternative yet.
This tree is 150 cm high and looong time in a pot. It might not be the akadama that is the problem but the way people work with it. Yes it is different than other soils but we all must use what works for us. If i see the watering needs in summer here, i can imagine akadama could be dangerous in a warmer climate.
Last edited:
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I have been using 100% lava for pines, apples, maples, conifers of all sort, oaks, beech and cotoneaster and elms. Works awesome but dies fast.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
As you probaly know, I am a NON fan of akadama due to some catastrophic degradation of NEW aka.
Which has put me in the ALL lava camp.
But the more I talk to people in the club, the father apart the opinions get.
A ...lot... of very successful bonsaists use a MIX.
Now I mixed ...some... stuff with both the lava and the aka.
Not much and the BIGGEST part of the soil was aka on my near disaster (pic of concreted aka included)
and it went BAD. Water wouldn't even soak in let alone drain out and the soil was WET for days after a watering.
Now THAT does not happen with my lava.
But that doesn't explain the success of those who use aka either wholly or in PART (as in MIXED0
So..... long story short, what IS the advantage of aka? Does it hold more moisture longer (barring the uncertainty of degradation) or hold fertilizer better and a bit longer? I know the lava drains FAST.
Yet it has appreciable MOISTURE.... not soggy water... for quite a long time. Even on hot days.
Akadama fans, pls elaborate
Lava please do also.
Thanks.
View attachment 125191 View attachment 125192 View attachment 125193
Hi Mike -
I'm not doubting your observations, but something's wrong. Perhaps a bad batch? I've repotted dozens of trees planted in akadama and I've just never seen what you showed in those pictures. This is normal after a couple of years in the pot in the Bay Area:
Left is organic soil. Right is APL. No evidence of breaking down. No cemented cake in the pot. This was taken in 2013 and it still drains like a sieve.
So I'm not sure what happened in your case - I've never seen black caked on goop that was broken down akadama. I would have guessed that was potting soil or field soil.
Scott
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Yes Dirk.......
We Can Not have a discussion of Akadama without first addressing how many types come from Japan alone.
Add in the handful of folks probly selling regular Ass dirt as Akadama...
And it's not like we can go and check the UPC code on a piece of dirt...
Well, maybe Scott can!
But really....
Let's not formulate opinions, or even think we can formulate them at all,
Without ALL the information.
Or is it pretend o'clock?
Sorce
We Can Not have a discussion of Akadama without first addressing how many types come from Japan alone.
Add in the handful of folks probly selling regular Ass dirt as Akadama...
And it's not like we can go and check the UPC code on a piece of dirt...
Well, maybe Scott can!
But really....
Let's not formulate opinions, or even think we can formulate them at all,
Without ALL the information.
Or is it pretend o'clock?
Sorce
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Page 5&6
http://www.bonsainut.com/resources/inorganic-soil-reference-sheet.28/
As far as I know they differ in processing, not provenance.
Scott
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Dirk,
over on the Bonsai Study Group. I mentioned [ hopefully jokingly ] our almost 100% clay particle soil - Mayo - Dama
It's a deposit of clay that was under the sea and has been cemented together. The particles at 5 mm are durable
and the hills that are made up of the stuff grow very rich cocoa pods.
Also used for making cement.
Mayo-dama grows trees very well when mixed with aged compost. Trouble is our silica based builder's gravel 5 mm.with aged compost
also does the same and our crushed earthenware brick at 5 mm, in combination with the gravel will do the same.
To grow in more heavily organic soil, porous pots control the water, even with heavy bucket a drop rain.
We have had one chap down here try to use the loam mix and he killed almost everything.
Reading also showed that Akadama in Japan was used if you were near the source or could get it. Other folk further from
the Akadama used a volcanic sand.
I will speak out if I sense Newbies around, and try to get them to use what they have locally, so to speak.
We found many of the practices of Bonsai to be unnecessarily expensive, and try to help others keep the cost down.
Good Day
Anthony
over on the Bonsai Study Group. I mentioned [ hopefully jokingly ] our almost 100% clay particle soil - Mayo - Dama
It's a deposit of clay that was under the sea and has been cemented together. The particles at 5 mm are durable
and the hills that are made up of the stuff grow very rich cocoa pods.
Also used for making cement.
Mayo-dama grows trees very well when mixed with aged compost. Trouble is our silica based builder's gravel 5 mm.with aged compost
also does the same and our crushed earthenware brick at 5 mm, in combination with the gravel will do the same.
To grow in more heavily organic soil, porous pots control the water, even with heavy bucket a drop rain.
We have had one chap down here try to use the loam mix and he killed almost everything.
Reading also showed that Akadama in Japan was used if you were near the source or could get it. Other folk further from
the Akadama used a volcanic sand.
I will speak out if I sense Newbies around, and try to get them to use what they have locally, so to speak.
We found many of the practices of Bonsai to be unnecessarily expensive, and try to help others keep the cost down.
Good Day
Anthony
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
We don't need to rehash all this stuff. Price comparisons are on page 16.
http://www.bonsainut.com/resources/inorganic-soil-reference-sheet.28/
Folks can make their own minds up about what they want to spend their money on. Plenty of optoins in all different price ranges.
Scott
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
That Was a compliment BTW...
As Dirk was the first to bring it up.
I know Anthony probly read.
But for you non-readers...
That ain't no land mine!
Sorce
_#1_
Omono
No one mentioned
scorce got a wicked "Rogue" beard
Nice!
scorce got a wicked "Rogue" beard
Nice!
I can't get aka here but I make my own using a red sub-soil (clay) which dries as hard as rock. It's structure lasts well in a pot but (I've said it before and I'll say it again) you absolutely cannot water it directly. It MUST be covered with some kind of protective layer (moss, organic mix or similar) Watering it directly will rapidly degrade it and the fine particles will be washed down into the pot disrupting the drainage efficiency of the whole container. It is a sub-soil which came from beneath a protective layer of top soil. It just cannot stand weathering. (unless fired of course) Properly covered, it should hold it's integrity for a long period of time.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I meant dries not dies
Eric Group
Masterpiece
That doesn't look like Akadama- way too dark in color. I think you were sold something that was incorrectly labeled as Akadama. Either that or the "stuff" you mixed it with was swamp mud.As you probaly know, I am a NON fan of akadama due to some catastrophic degradation of NEW aka.
Which has put me in the ALL lava camp.
But the more I talk to people in the club, the father apart the opinions get.
A ...lot... of very successful bonsaists use a MIX.
Now I mixed ...some... stuff with both the lava and the aka.
Not much and the BIGGEST part of the soil was aka on my near disaster (pic of concreted aka included)
and it went BAD. Water wouldn't even soak in let alone drain out and the soil was WET for days after a watering.
Now THAT does not happen with my lava.
But that doesn't explain the success of those who use aka either wholly or in PART (as in MIXED0
So..... long story short, what IS the advantage of aka? Does it hold more moisture longer (barring the uncertainty of degradation) or hold fertilizer better and a bit longer? I know the lava drains FAST.
Yet it has appreciable MOISTURE.... not soggy water... for quite a long time. Even on hot days.
Akadama fans, pls elaborate
Lava please do also.
Thanks.
There are different types of Akadama you can get but they all have a much lighter color than that even when wet.
As for the benefits- it does hold moisture and nutrients more than lava, it does break down over time but that is supposed to be a benefit according to some- allowing the soil to develop with the roots... when roots are freshly cut and need increased airation to encourage root growth- the particles are large and hold their shape.. as the roots grow and ramify the particles break down leading to better moisture retention.. Somethibg like that.
Personally I have had poor results in pure Akadama but great results when it is mixed with pumice and lava. Also had poor results with pure pumice... pure lava isn't something I have tried, in my climate it seems it would be too dry...
justBonsai
Omono
All that watering....
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
For us, the only really necessary ingredient was aged compost [ thanks Rodale ].
And we water once in the afternoon, twice in the morning.
Nothing when it rains [ June to December ] and this works for the compost.
Not really interested in every 2 or 3 day waterings, and by hand is more enjoyable.
It's a hobby, and daily watering also allows daily interest ---- I really like looking at trees.
And apologies Scott, cost is a big factor, down here you either learn to do for yourself or
you end up living beyond your means and with endless depression.
I will let you know when we start to drop forge concave pruners, when we break one.
Good Day
Anthony
And we water once in the afternoon, twice in the morning.
Nothing when it rains [ June to December ] and this works for the compost.
Not really interested in every 2 or 3 day waterings, and by hand is more enjoyable.
It's a hobby, and daily watering also allows daily interest ---- I really like looking at trees.
And apologies Scott, cost is a big factor, down here you either learn to do for yourself or
you end up living beyond your means and with endless depression.
I will let you know when we start to drop forge concave pruners, when we break one.
Good Day
Anthony
Mike Corazzi
Masterpiece
markyscott, that left side of your pic is the right COLOR for the junk I had to chisel out.
But it was NOT loose and crumbly like your "fallout" shows.
It was densely compacted and would NOT let water ...through...
It would get wet and STAY wet.
I suspect bad batch.
I'm going with some bonsai friends (human type) this week to same place and see what he is using from that place.
I....think.... he is using a MIX. Done by them.
The junk I bought was in a bag. And, like I said, it was different from the bags I...HAD... been getting.
Refresher pic on the concretion I had.
But it was NOT loose and crumbly like your "fallout" shows.
It was densely compacted and would NOT let water ...through...
It would get wet and STAY wet.
I suspect bad batch.
I'm going with some bonsai friends (human type) this week to same place and see what he is using from that place.
I....think.... he is using a MIX. Done by them.
The junk I bought was in a bag. And, like I said, it was different from the bags I...HAD... been getting.
Refresher pic on the concretion I had.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Mike Corazzi
Masterpiece
I was getting GREAT pumice at Green Acres Nursery and last year they changed to some that is almost ...SAND!
I was getting NICE coarse pumice.
I was getting NICE coarse pumice.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
I do not doubt your experience. My only point was that it was different than mine. The stuff on the left of the picture I posted was field soil left over from collection. The stuff on the right was equal parts akadama, pumice, and lava.
Scott
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I also think it was a bad batch. I cant see the right stuff making black roots like the ones in the OP, unless something like mud was mixed with it.
