I could not resist

[ConorDash]

This Maple looks great, and I can imagine how great it could look with further development later.
Its nice to see another person in the UK, we are far and few between around here I think!
You aren't the only Brit on this forum who bought a Maple recently, that needs work lol.

I look forward to seeing this ones future. You've already had some of the best people's opinions here, so its look hopeful for the future.
Do you know what substrate the maple is currently in?
The Crab almost looks like its in our Tesco Cat Litter mix, mostly equivalent to America's NAPA DE 8822.
Thats what I'm currently using for a few little trees and will potentially put my Maple in, in spring.

 

[Rob_phillips]

Hi there @ConorDash the maple is in i believe straight akadama and the crab apple has a top layer i put on because the surface soil before was a bit ugly, its molar clay which is horticultural cat litter without the perfume and chemicals that gets added to it. The soil under the top layer is what it was imported in from korea its just grit and some organic compound or broken down akadama its hard to say.

 

[Adair M]

A couple of things:

If you're going to sprnd the time it's going to take to make this tree great, then fix all the problems.

The problems that I see:

1) nebari is not all that great, as it's not even all around. It's heavy on two opposite sides, and flat on the others.

2) the second trunk is too high. It's really a low branch that grows vertical

3) there's reverse taper between the nebari and where the second trunk starts

4) there's no taper in the second trunk


So, the first three problems are easy: airlayer it right where the second trunk starts. Then you'll have a true twin trunk. Airlayering will get you radial roots to build a better nebari. And, you'll be removing the reverse taper section of the trunk.

As for problem 4: just as you need to chop the top of the main tree, I think you should chop the second trunk right above where those first set of branches are. That section shoots straight up. And has a long internode. Cut it off. Choose one branch to be the new leader, another to be the first branch. Instant taper.

Remember, deciduous trees are grown, slowly, to become great bonsai. It takes much longer to develop good deciduous bonsai.

 

[LanceMac10]

Airlayering.

Maybe practice this technique on something else first!!

 

[Rob_phillips]

A couple of things:

If you're going to sprnd the time it's going to take to make this tree great, then fix all the problems.

The problems that I see:

1) nebari is not all that great, as it's not even all around. It's heavy on two opposite sides, and flat on the others.

2) the second trunk is too high. It's really a low branch that grows vertical

3) there's reverse taper between the nebari and where the second trunk starts

4) there's no taper in the second trunk


So, the first three problems are easy: airlayer it right where the second trunk starts. Then you'll have a true twin trunk. Airlayering will get you radial roots to build a better nebari. And, you'll be removing the reverse taper section of the trunk.

As for problem 4: just as you need to chop the top of the main tree, I think you should chop the second trunk right above where those first set of branches are. That section shoots straight up. And has a long internode. Cut it off. Choose one branch to be the new leader, another to be the first branch. Instant taper.

Remember, deciduous trees are grown, slowly, to become great bonsai. It takes much longer to develop good deciduous bonsai.

Is it not safer with my experience to try and root graft some roots to improve inperfections in the nabari first and if that fails or looks wierd try an air layer 2nd

 

[Jeremy]

2) the second trunk is too high. It's really a low branch that grows vertical

Really? It's just above the roots lol

@Rob_phillips, I was liking the second photo you posted. @MACH5 virtual confirms what I was thinking. As Adair pointed out the nebari could use some improvement and you will achieve that in time with grafting as you mentioned. Nice project!

 

[Adair M]

Airlayering is actually pretty easy. Easier than root grafting. And it would solve so many problems.

Here's a link to a Graham Potter video demonstrating how to airlayering:

 

[Adair M]

Really? It's just above the roots lol

@Rob_phillips, I was liking the second photo you posted. @MACH5 virtual confirms what I was thinking. As Adair pointed out the nebari could use some improvement and you will achieve that in time with grafting as you mentioned. Nice project!

Really. "It's just above the roots". Exactly. That makes it a branch, not a trunk. If you want it to be a trunk, it should be at the roots.

It's the little things like that that separate the really good bonsai from the so so bonsai.

 

[Rob_phillips]

Airlayering is actually pretty easy. Easier than root grafting. And it would solve so many problems.

Here's a link to a Graham Potter video demonstrating how to airlayering:

Yeah ive watched that video before Graham does make a very good video and informative one.
I have a few airlayer projects this year to add some experience to the technique. But i will take it to corrin tomlinson for advice on mater and get him to do the work (if we decide it needs it) on the nabari to make sure its done correctly. I will be going back to the nursery to see him in late summer with my pines he can check on its progression then. So this tree will get there in the end im sure of it.

 

[Adair M]

Look at this little Shohin twin trunk;



It's a twin trunk, not a triple trunk. Two trunks come off the nebari. The branch on the right, is a branch off the second trunk.

 

[Rob_phillips]

Look at this little Shohin twin trunk;

View attachment 131378

It's a twin trunk, not a triple trunk. Two trunks come off the nebari. The branch on the right, is a branch off the second trunk.

I understand what your saying sorry if you think i dont.
I still think that it will work as a low branch check out the virt @MACH5 done for me i think that would be a great goal to achieve.
Do you not think that that would be a really nice tree to get it to that stage?
It would tick and correct a few of your flaw boxes you mentioned before like adressing the main apex and the height of the lowest branch or 2nd trunk.
Or do you see the base far too problematic because of its flaws. Although i do agree that the nabari needs improvement in time.
Whats your opinion on the mater @MACH5.

 

[Jeremy]

Really. "It's just above the roots". Exactly. That makes it a branch, not a trunk. If you want it to be a trunk, it should be at the roots.

It's the little things like that that separate the really good bonsai from the so so bonsai.

Depends on your views on bonsai. I know you're a classical man so I knew this would be your response. But really, deciduous trees are known for growing 'sub-trunks' midway, or even further up the tree. This Maple would be a nice example of a twin trunk. The trident you showed while also 'nice', the second trunk forms on the nebari. Last I checked tridents don't sucker from roots. If a dominant branch grows up and we place an apex on it, it is a trunk in my eyes. Doesn't matter whether you call it a twin trunk or informal upright, there's still 2 trunks in the composition.

 

[MACH5]

If you go strictly by Japanese rules, yes trunk is too high up. For me sometimes I can forgo this "rule" if visually it works. Sometimes it simply doesn't. So depends how flexible one is. I always go for what "feels" right and natural to me from a design point of view. This one does not bother me and I would treat it as a trunk.

 

[Adair M]

Mach5 makes nice virts.

However, and Mach and I have discussed this, I don't like how Mach draws the branches. He draws them with the underneath bud extending the branch. That "sometimes" happens, but usually it's the upper bud that extends the branch. The branch growing from the upper bud shades out the lower branch.

What's the difference?

Branches extending as top buds dominating grow out as a series of "hills". Branches grown out using bottom buds extend as a series of "valleys". Which is the way Mach drew it.

However, go out and look at deciduous trees now, while they're bare of leaves. You'll see that they grow out predominately as "hills". Occasionally, there will be a "valley". But mostly hills.

Here's a little drawing I made to illustrate the concept:



The top is "hills", the bottom is "valleys". Which looks more natural?

 

[Adair M]

If you go strictly by Japanese rules, yes trunk is too high up. For me sometimes I can forgo this "rule" if visually it works. Sometimes it simply doesn't. So depends how flexible one is. I always go for what "feels" right and natural to me from a design point of view. This one does not bother me and I would treat it as a trunk.

If the nebari were great, I'd agree. But it isn't. So why not fix the nebari and make a proper twin trunk rather than an "almost" twin trunk?

To me, it's this attitude of "well, it's not perfect, but it's pretty close, so we'll go with it", that's holding us back. The Japanese would say to fix it. Yes, it will take longer, but in the long run, it will be better. That's why we don't have deciduous bonsai in this country as good as the Japanese. We accept "pretty close". The Japanese don't.

 

[petegreg]

I like Mach5 virtual too. But look at an empty space between the two trunks. I'm afraid as the tree will grow and the thrunks thicken, that break between the trunks will disappear.

 

[Jeremy]

Mach5 makes nice virts.

However, and Mach and I have discussed this, I don't like how Mach draws the branches. He draws them with the underneath bud extending the branch. That "sometimes" happens, but usually it's the upper bud that extends the branch. The branch growing from the upper bud shades out the lower branch.

What's the difference?

Branches extending as top buds dominating grow out as a series of "hills". Branches grown out using bottom buds extend as a series of "valleys". Which is the way Mach drew it.

However, go out and look at deciduous trees now, while they're bare of leaves. You'll see that they grow out predominately as "hills". Occasionally, there will be a "valley". But mostly hills.

Here's a little drawing I made to illustrate the concept:

View attachment 131406

The top is "hills", the bottom is "valleys". Which looks more natural?

Neither looks natural, you've drawn a main horizontal branch, this ties in with general outdated Japanese aesthetic guidelines ('rules') that is aimed at conifers. I tend to think all the 'rules' that people oblige by is what is holding back western bonsai. I'm sure the modern Japanese artists would run with this tree rather than try to fix it. So called faults can be made into features, and I strongly believe the feature of this tree is the second trunk (first branch?)

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Not another Brit.....well at least......you speak proper English unlike those Americans....hang on who haven'tI insulted yet....hmnm Canadians....dunno what they'retalking aboot.

Lol everyone does know I am just kidding right.
Anyway about the trees.
They both look awesome....both need work but both awesome....

Please update when they leaf out will be great to see.

The danger of a bonsai nursery....you think you are just going to look....thats what you tell yourself.......

Hiw much did the maple set you back if I may ask?

 

[Adair M]

Neither looks natural, you've drawn a main horizontal branch, this ties in with general outdated Japanese aesthetic guidelines ('rules') that is aimed at conifers. I tend to think all the 'rules' that people oblige by is what is holding back western bonsai. I'm sure the modern Japanese artists would run with this tree rather than try to fix it. So called faults can be made into features, and I strongly believe the feature of this tree is the second trunk (first branch?)

Not at all, Jeremy.

Go look at decidious trees.

This is a 30 year old oak tree on my property. As you can see, the lower branches hang down, the ones in the middle are roughly horizontal, and the branches high up are reaching for the sky.



At one time, those lower branches were reaching for the sky! The weight of their leaves pulled them down.

Here's a close up:



See how the twigs on the top of the branches are alive, but there's no little twigs on the underside of the branches? There were buds there, but they didn't get enough light. So the tree sluffs them off.

 

[Rob_phillips]

Thanks for the posts so far im learning alot great info and debate.

Not another Brit.....well at least......you speak proper English unlike those Americans....hang on who haven'tI insulted yet....hmnm Canadians....dunno what they'retalking aboot.

Lol everyone does know I am just kidding right.
Anyway about the trees.
They both look awesome....both need work but both awesome....

Please update when they leaf out will be great to see.

The danger of a bonsai nursery....you think you are just going to look....thats what you tell yourself.......

Hiw much did the maple set you back if I may ask?

In answer to your question on cost of the tree it was £450