Help needed with Eu. Olive styling

[AlainK]

Well done Judy!

What I particularly like in your result so far is that here, in Europe, most people from Mediterranean countries (South of France, Spain, Italy,...) style their olive trees like Japanese junipers: a lot of "bleached" dead wood on a contorted trunk with a triangular canopy.

Yours just looks natural, it looks like old trees I've seen down south, not like a copycat of "traditional masters".

It would get no chance to get a prize here. Even in a recent, perhaps the most respected European show, this year's awards were so conventional...

So perhaps, big brother was right: ignorance is strength (at least when you don't reproduce models that themselves are the reproductions of other models). Your olive tree is personal and looks natural at the same time. Kudos on you!

 

[JudyB]

@AlainK -It also didn't win a prize here, although I did have several trees that did. I am fine with that, I do my trees for me when it boils down to it. Thanks!

 

[Starfox]

Did I not post here when I saw it linked?
Oh well as I said in the other thread it's a great little tree and I love the way it has turned out.

I can totally see the look you are meaning when you say you want work on the open split in the middle area, like some of the pics posted of old trees that will work well and look great(it already does though ).

I have been looking around a lot locally for trees in the wild or on local properties for some inspiration for mine and one thing I have noticed is there seem to be two distinct types, the single trunk with almost a broom look to them and a double trunk look with a main trunk and then slightly smaller one veering off creating that split in the canopy. The second one I am leaning to as I think the curved trunk will allow it on mine.
I have no idea if this is good bonsai practice or not, I have also been looking online lots for inspiration and I couldn't agree more with @AlainK that most that are "Bonsai" don't look natural enough for me and I always come back to your tree as it is far more pleasing.

Did I mention the bark, love that too.

 

[drew33998]

I did show this one last year. Thanks very much @drew33998 !

Must be very rewarding to have a tree you created be in a show. I'm still 3-5 years with the material I currently have!

 

[fredman]

WoW this a fantastic tree. Love the progression you made with it. You have really inspired me for my olive...

 

[JudyB]

And they are fun and fast to develop, so that helps. Thanks Fred.

 

[Dalmat]

What I particularly like in your result so far is that here, in Europe, most people from Mediterranean countries (South of France, Spain, Italy,...) style their olive trees like Japanese junipers: a lot of "bleached" dead wood on a contorted trunk with a triangular canopy

So not truth.

Nice tree Judy,but olive like that can't be believable like shohin cause of transition in the old trunk and young branches.
You just can see an olive in nature like that. That is just what strikes my view but that is only cause I live in olive land and others probably don't see it that way.
Just a constructive critique but never the less, nice tree.

 

[JudyB]

@Dalmat I believe what Alain was trying to say was that at least the style choice is correct to showcase how olives grow, not that it's an exact replica of an old tree. Someday hopefully it may become more believable for you as it ages.

 

[Dalmat]

@Dalmat I believe what Alain was trying to say was that at least the style choice is correct to showcase how olives grow, not that it's an exact replica of an old tree. Someday hopefully it may become more believable for you as it ages.

Sorry for not been precise , in Alain comment I referred to the part..... most people from Mediterranean countries.... and styling olives like junipers.

 

[AlainK]

Sorry for not been precise , in Alain comment I referred to the part..... most people from Mediterranean countries.... and styling olives like junipers.

Sorry, I just forgot "Mediterranean countries" are not limited to Spain and Italy: most of the olive bonsai we can see in France are from there, but it's "the tree that hides the forest" as we say

 

[Saizan]

First of all, congratulations for the tree, and the perfect pairing with the pot. I like it very much!

About this comment:

Well done Judy!

What I particularly like in your result so far is that here, in Europe, most people from Mediterranean countries (South of France, Spain, Italy,...) style their olive trees like Japanese junipers: a lot of "bleached" dead wood on a contorted trunk with a triangular canopy.

Yours just looks natural, it looks like old trees I've seen down south, not like a copycat of "traditional masters".

I slightly disagree.

Olive trees in Mediterranean places (I saw it in Spain, Tunisia, Italy, Greece) are cultivated from centurys ago, and the typical form is broom style due to maximize the olives production. So, all the olive trees that you see are broom style, but it's not the natural style of an olive growing wild in the Nature.

Wild olive trees are styled like Japanese junipers because are similar when are growing in Nature: lots of dead wood, buttoned and cracked bark, contorted trunk. You only need to take a look to wild olives ("ullastres") in its natural habitat to see the similarities, and are the reasons that these specimens are very appreciated for bonsai.

Sorry for the hint and, again, congrats for your tree, that resembles a lot to a Mediterranean olive tree

 

[JudyB]

Here is the tree after repotting and a little angle change, I let it have a little lean.
Sometimes I can't believe this tree has come so far in such a short time.

 

[fredtruck]

This tree is really beautiful, Judy. I love the container, too.

 

[JudyB]

This tree is really beautiful, Judy. I love the container, too.

Thanks Fred, that container is Horst Heinzelreiter. I spun the pot this year too, I think I like this side as much as the other.

 

[fredtruck]

I'm familiar with Horst's work, and it really goes well with your tree. Very nice combination.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Nice tree Judy. Did you wire this? And how long has it taken to get to this stage? Looks really good. Did you have to do a lot of pruning for that ramification? I notice these seem to have two buds each side of each branch so it looks like if I cut it it should ramify perfectly one to two, two to four and so on... New to olives :0/

 

[JudyB]

Nice tree Judy. Did you wire this? And how long has it taken to get to this stage? Looks really good. Did you have to do a lot of pruning for that ramification? I notice these seem to have two buds each side of each branch so it looks like if I cut it it should ramify perfectly one to two, two to four and so on... New to olives :0/

I have done a lot of wiring on this tree, generally during the winter season. And lots and lots of pruning during the summer. It does exactly what you say it does. I've had this tree for about 4-5 years...Thanks Aiki.

 

[Adair M]

Judy,

It appears to me that you're keeping this tree pinched back too much. I see the effect of the ramification, and broom design, but the problem for me is the abrupt transition from rough barked thick fairly straight trunk to smooth, slender, wiggly taperless branches.

It's like the top belongs to a different tree than the bottom.

Now, I know that it takes time for the new branches to bark up. There's little you can do about that. But, I think you can fix the taper issue.

But, it involves a wholesale change of approach.

Which you might not agree with.

Earlier you stated that you primarily wire in the winter. Well, my approach is to wire primarily during the growing season!

The way I would do it would be to let the branches extend, wire, let grow, then remove wire, and cut back hard. Repeat 3 or 4 times a growing season.

The growing out allows the branches to develop girth. And cutting back creates taper. Wiring actually puts in a little scarring, which done repeat lay, begins to look like rough bark. That's not the purpose of the wire, of course, the wire is to induce curves. But it's an "unintended consequence" that works in our favor.

Now, the downside of my technique is the tree looks like a scared porcupine much of the time as it's developing!



That's the grow out phase.

Then, cut back and wire it out;



Then let it grow out again.

My little olive has on been in trading about a year. I'm very much in the "building primary branches" phase. No where near developing ramification. I'm just trying to grow primary branches with taper at this point.

Your tree appears to have gone straight from "chop" to "ramification" and skipped the branch building phase.

Judy, I'm writing this not to be "critical". You've done a fine job of developing ramification. But if you look at your pictures, you'll see little change in the girth or taper of the primary branches over the past couple years. Once you start developing ramification, little girth growing happens.

When Peter Tea first returned from his apprenticeship in Japan, he remarked about how long it takes to develop branches on deciduous trees once you have built the trunk. And he said it's a step that we here in the US often skip in our race to develop canopy and ramification.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I don't want to start a flame war, I'm just pointing out a technique that may help improve the transition from old trunk to new branches.

 

[JudyB]

Perhaps I should have taken some photos of it in porcupine stage for you Adair lol... I DO let it grow out and cut back. The whips were about 2 feet when I took them off a few weeks ago. There is some bark starting on the low part of the larger branches, but I doubt that it'll go up the branches very fast.

I know you wire in growing season, but I find that I have more time in winter. I think you would have to agree that I've been able to get plenty of movement into this tree wiring it in winter...
And I think for 3 years from the chop, that the branches are developing pretty well. I see reasonable taper and the branches are thickening every season.

 

[Adair M]

Perhaps I should have taken some photos of it in porcupine stage for you Adair lol... I DO let it grow out and cut back. The whips were about 2 feet when I took them off a few weeks ago. There is some bark starting on the low part of the larger branches, but I doubt that it'll go up the branches very fast.

I know you wire in growing season, but I find that I have more time in winter. I think you would have to agree that I've been able to get plenty of movement into this tree wiring it in winter...
And I think for 3 years from the chop, that the branches are developing pretty well. I see reasonable taper and the branches are thickening every season.

Oh, I agree, they're a lot of work!

I guess the different approach I'm taking is not trying to develop ramification so soon. And I honk I cut back farther.

Anyway, olives are fun! They grow like weeds!