Help / Advise needed from Newbie for Crab apple

[Martin Sweeney]

Ah, thanks for the tag @Leo in N E Illinois I had missed the new photo posting.
I would agree that your front is the one with the small styro fleck. You do need to get more movement into those branches, and if you don't want to do it with thicker wire, then you'll have to do it by cutbacks. If you are planning on a repot this spring, then I would not cut any more off of it until it recovers. I would suggest getting it into a better soil, that looks pretty organic, although I don't know maybe your climate is very dry and you need lots of moisture? You'll also want to recut some of your wounds where you cut large parts off, cut them flush to the trunk and then seal them. If you have a concave cutter, that makes it easier as the wound will heal flusher to the trunk. Crabapples are loath to ramify, you must make them do it. @Martin Sweeney gave me a good tutorial on crabapples long ago that I've used to develop mine. I'm attaching the text here.


If you want to totally remove a branch or cut one back hard, it should be done in late fall (after leaf drop) or late winter (before bud swelling) being sure to apply medicated wound sealant. Doing so during or after bud swell can often result in either water sprouts or die-back. You should prune last year's shoots at bud swell.
Crabs are difficult to give exact training advice on because they can behave very differently, not just between varieties, but also from plant to plant and even year to year. I recommend experimenting with different techniques and making very good observations and taking good notes.
If you remove the flowers, shoot growth is usually very strong. (If new growth is not strong, only perform light maintenance.) Keep watering and fertilizing on the lighter side during the spring flush if flowers are removed. On extremely strong or early shoots, tip the new shoot once 2 or 3 nodes have formed to shorten the internodes. To induce or strengthen backbudding, once a shoot has reached 1", cut it back to just 1 leaf. Any other shoots should be tipped when they are at least 1" long. There are 2 caveats to soft pruning crabs. 1) DO NOT soft prune shoots once they are over 2" long. Otherwise you run the risk of getting a branch that does not flower. 2) DO NOT cut too many (say more than 1/3) of the new shoots in one sitting, but spread it out over 2 or 3 weeks. (I did that one year. Because I removed flowers and didn't control the water and fert., the plant rocketted away. I trimmed the new shoots all at once, and the plant collapsed/went into shock. Gladly it survived, but I set it back several years.)
New shoots can be wired in early summer when they are semi-hard. I cut new shoots back (where needed) in late summer here, but that might be something you need to leave until spring. The trick to creating convincing branches on a crab (as with most bonsai) is to grow them very slowly, maybe 1" per year.

JudyB,

Are you sure that was me? I certainly don't remember it, but I am getting old!

Regards,
Martin

 

[JudyB]

JudyB,

Are you sure that was me? I certainly don't remember it, but I am getting old!

Regards,
Martin

No it is ME that is getting old, I've gotten so much good advice from you I got you mixed up with @Stan Kengai . Oh my!!!

 

[Soldano666]

Ah, thanks for the tag @Leo in N E Illinois I had missed the new photo posting.
I would agree that your front is the one with the small styro fleck. You do need to get more movement into those branches, and if you don't want to do it with thicker wire, then you'll have to do it by cutbacks. If you are planning on a repot this spring, then I would not cut any more off of it until it recovers. I would suggest getting it into a better soil, that looks pretty organic, although I don't know maybe your climate is very dry and you need lots of moisture? You'll also want to recut some of your wounds where you cut large parts off, cut them flush to the trunk and then seal them. If you have a concave cutter, that makes it easier as the wound will heal flusher to the trunk. Crabapples are loath to ramify, you must make them do it. @Martin Sweeney gave me a good tutorial on crabapples long ago that I've used to develop mine. I'm attaching the text here.


If you want to totally remove a branch or cut one back hard, it should be done in late fall (after leaf drop) or late winter (before bud swelling) being sure to apply medicated wound sealant. Doing so during or after bud swell can often result in either water sprouts or die-back. You should prune last year's shoots at bud swell.
Crabs are difficult to give exact training advice on because they can behave very differently, not just between varieties, but also from plant to plant and even year to year. I recommend experimenting with different techniques and making very good observations and taking good notes.
If you remove the flowers, shoot growth is usually very strong. (If new growth is not strong, only perform light maintenance.) Keep watering and fertilizing on the lighter side during the spring flush if flowers are removed. On extremely strong or early shoots, tip the new shoot once 2 or 3 nodes have formed to shorten the internodes. To induce or strengthen backbudding, once a shoot has reached 1", cut it back to just 1 leaf. Any other shoots should be tipped when they are at least 1" long. There are 2 caveats to soft pruning crabs. 1) DO NOT soft prune shoots once they are over 2" long. Otherwise you run the risk of getting a branch that does not flower. 2) DO NOT cut too many (say more than 1/3) of the new shoots in one sitting, but spread it out over 2 or 3 weeks. (I did that one year. Because I removed flowers and didn't control the water and fert., the plant rocketted away. I trimmed the new shoots all at once, and the plant collapsed/went into shock. Gladly it survived, but I set it back several years.)
New shoots can be wired in early summer when they are semi-hard. I cut new shoots back (where needed) in late summer here, but that might be something you need to leave until spring. The trick to creating convincing branches on a crab (as with most bonsai) is to grow them very slowly, maybe 1" per year.

Bookmarked. Thanks Judy

 

[Carol 83]

Ah, thanks for the tag @Leo in N E Illinois I had missed the new photo posting.
I would agree that your front is the one with the small styro fleck. You do need to get more movement into those branches, and if you don't want to do it with thicker wire, then you'll have to do it by cutbacks. If you are planning on a repot this spring, then I would not cut any more off of it until it recovers. I would suggest getting it into a better soil, that looks pretty organic, although I don't know maybe your climate is very dry and you need lots of moisture? You'll also want to recut some of your wounds where you cut large parts off, cut them flush to the trunk and then seal them. If you have a concave cutter, that makes it easier as the wound will heal flusher to the trunk. Crabapples are loath to ramify, you must make them do it. @Martin Sweeney gave me a good tutorial on crabapples long ago that I've used to develop mine. I'm attaching the text here.


If you want to totally remove a branch or cut one back hard, it should be done in late fall (after leaf drop) or late winter (before bud swelling) being sure to apply medicated wound sealant. Doing so during or after bud swell can often result in either water sprouts or die-back. You should prune last year's shoots at bud swell.
Crabs are difficult to give exact training advice on because they can behave very differently, not just between varieties, but also from plant to plant and even year to year. I recommend experimenting with different techniques and making very good observations and taking good notes.
If you remove the flowers, shoot growth is usually very strong. (If new growth is not strong, only perform light maintenance.) Keep watering and fertilizing on the lighter side during the spring flush if flowers are removed. On extremely strong or early shoots, tip the new shoot once 2 or 3 nodes have formed to shorten the internodes. To induce or strengthen backbudding, once a shoot has reached 1", cut it back to just 1 leaf. Any other shoots should be tipped when they are at least 1" long. There are 2 caveats to soft pruning crabs. 1) DO NOT soft prune shoots once they are over 2" long. Otherwise you run the risk of getting a branch that does not flower. 2) DO NOT cut too many (say more than 1/3) of the new shoots in one sitting, but spread it out over 2 or 3 weeks. (I did that one year. Because I removed flowers and didn't control the water and fert., the plant rocketted away. I trimmed the new shoots all at once, and the plant collapsed/went into shock. Gladly it survived, but I set it back several years.)
New shoots can be wired in early summer when they are semi-hard. I cut new shoots back (where needed) in late summer here, but that might be something you need to leave until spring. The trick to creating convincing branches on a crab (as with most bonsai) is to grow them very slowly, maybe 1" per year.

I have a couple little crabs hanging out in the garage, that I got from evergreengardenworks last spring. I had no clue what I could/should do with them. This is great information.

 

[JudyB]

Here is the thread where that conversation occurred if you want to read the whole thing.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/crabapple-renovation.6379/

 

[JoB]

I like this side as well, fortunately it's the opposite of the other "good" side, so you can develop both. I do that all the time if I have two good sides. The issue mostly with both sides is the large chop site up top, that needs recut and cleaned up to heal.

 

[JoB]

I like this side as well, fortunately it's the opposite of the other "good" side, so you can develop both. I do that all the time if I have two good sides. The issue mostly with both sides is the large chop site up top, that needs recut and cleaned up to heal.

I will clean up all the chop sites this weekend and keep in mind both sides when rewiring. We are supposed to be getting - 6 temp next week so i have some time to consider how to repot! ... Looks like Winter is coming late this year!

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Really like this tree. I would use this as the front, get rid of the top with the inverse taper, wire the blue branches a little lower, and wait and see what new leader grows from the top. I think the tree is a little top heavy right now with all the branches at the top. It doesnt look like it's vigor is going tk be balanced come spring.

I think the lack of significant cuts on this side makes for a nicer more natural looking trunk than the side where youll need to wait for all the cuts to heal. At this angle, you can potentially work on the other fronts, which I admit are more interesting long term, while not having large showing wounds on the trunk.

Maybe others could give me their thoughts? I'm no expert. Just giving my opinion.

 

[LanceMac10]

Hardest part about bonsai is knowing when to work a tree and when to take a step back.

How familiar are you with container growing?

 

[Japonicus]

I have a couple little crabs hanging out in the garage, that I got from evergreengardenworks last spring. I had no clue what I could/should do with them. This is great information.

Me too I got a Prairie Fire from Brent last year. Thread watched. Thanks Judy.

 

[Carol 83]

Me too I got a Prairie Fire from Brent last year. Thread watched. Thanks Judy.

Me too. A Prairie Fire for the purplish blooms, and a Mary Potter. Both were blooming when I received them, which was awesome. Hopefully, I'll get to see them bloom again this spring. Best of luck with yours.

 

[JoB]

JudyB .. I attempted a clean up of the new and old chops and made sure to treat them all. I then tried to add more movement in the existing branches , so replaced some of the original (too thin) wires that I had used in the first try. Presumably I need to just leave these on and keep and eye on them and remove just when necessary ?

I think it is an improvement ? .. I will do a repot in spring and then hope the little man recovers well from the beginner hacking at him

 

[JoB]

Really like this tree. I would use this as the front, get rid of the top with the inverse taper, wire the blue branches a little lower, and wait and see what new leader grows from the top. I think the tree is a little top heavy right now with all the branches at the top. It doesnt look like it's vigor is going tk be balanced come spring.

I think the lack of significant cuts on this side makes for a nicer more natural looking trunk than the side where youll need to wait for all the cuts to heal. At this angle, you can potentially work on the other fronts, which I admit are more interesting long term, while not having large showing wounds on the trunk.

Maybe others could give me their thoughts? I'm no expert. Just giving my opinion.

View attachment 223838

I also like this view , for the same reasons as you mention .. so I am definately keeping this in mind , I would need to repot at a different angle as currently as currently the tree is leaning away from the view at this angle.
I also like your suggestions re the main chop .. I will also keep this in mind . not sure I am brave enough to do that immediately . this boy is my first 'proper' Bonsai and I am just hoping he is going to recover well from the major prune I just did. I will definately come back to your image later though .. thanks

 

[LCD35]

So how did it do this year?

 

[sdavis]

Hhow about some shots with leaves?