Hello, my name is Dave and I'm a turface user.

[JudyB]

No it's actually sawdust. I've gotten some trees from them that were shipped in straight sawdust media.

 

[coh]

No it's actually sawdust. I've gotten some trees from them that were shipped in straight sawdust media.

And the roots were good, right? I got one tree from them (European Hornbeam) and the roots were in pretty good shape.

 

[JudyB]

Roots were HEALTHY, but not good, as far as roots built for bonsai.

 

[wireme]

For several years one of the largest conifer wholesale nurseries in Oregon (Iseli) has been growing pines and junipers in 100% fir bark with amendment (calcium carbonate) for pH control. It is inexpensive and works well for them.

They plants I mentioned were brought in from Oregon, maybe from the same nursery, excellent healthy roots and plants.

 

[bonsaiBlake]

A number of years ago my boss and his wife ran out of hort. grade pearlite for rooting cuttings (we're talking a landscape nursery) so in desperation they purchased a bag of construction grade fine pearlite, grains just larger than sand, and not very dusty. The results were amazing. The fine particle size combined with the high breathability feeder roots need and a decent enough CDC to not require excessive watering, all of our cuttings are still propagated in this media.
After pulling multiple cuttings of all kinds of stuff out of the pearlite with absolute pompoms for a root system, I thought what the hell, feeder roots are the most desirable in bonsai. So I potted something up in pure fine perlite. The growth has been fantastic and today is repotting day for me. Finally a day off that's lines up with the weather not being triple digits it's time to give some of the new members of the gang their first root massage. Updates tonight. . .

 

[Dav4]

Roots were HEALTHY, but not good, as far as roots built for bonsai.

That's why I think the pond basket is needed. The trees I worked on yesterday were planted in the yard, so no hard root pruning, though I had no circling or heavy downward growing roots, and I suspect I could have cut away 90% of the roots they had and been able to squeeze them into the smallest shohin pot around. I've still got more that will get root work next spring...I'll be sure to post more pictures then.

 

[coh]

Roots were HEALTHY, but not good, as far as roots built for bonsai.

Thank you, that's what I meant. Same with my tree...roots were OK in the bonsai sense, but will still need a fair amount of work and possibly grafting (it's obvious that the roots on mine weren't extensively worked over the years). Roots were healthy and vigorous, though.

 

[michaelj]

The only thing that turface ever worked well for in my yard was rooting cuttings. However, even for cuttings, it hasn't worked as well as some other materials. So I'm done with it. I have a handful of things to be repotted out of turface or turface mixes next year, and then there will be no more of it in my pots anywhere. But I understand the request for data rather than just anecdotes and statistics. "The What Informs, But The Why Transforms." I like to know more than just what works. I like to try to get an understanding, when possible, of why it works.

 

[Smoke]

The only thing that turface ever worked well for in my yard was rooting cuttings. However, even for cuttings, it hasn't worked as well as some other materials. So I'm done with it. I have a handful of things to be repotted out of turface or turface mixes next year, and then there will be no more of it in my pots anywhere. But I understand the request for data rather than just anecdotes and statistics. "The What Informs, But The Why Transforms." I like to know more than just what works. I like to try to get an understanding, when possible, of why it works.

Your an educated guy, so I'm not gonna try and blow sunshine up your skirt with anecdotes. The bottom line is, there are no papers nor data or any scientific reasons why akadama works. Would you drink walrus milk? I wouldn't, yet it is one of the worlds best milks there is. We drink milk from a cow. Would you put your lips to the teat of a milk cow and nurse? I wouldn't. I can drink a quart of milk with half a bag of oreo's and I am one happy camper! Again I don't need scientific journals nor reams of paper to know milk is awesome and my momma told me it was good for me and that was good enough for me.

Akadama is sort of like that. people can't poo poo something until they have given it a fair shot. Like a couple years. I will agree its not for every climate and I can understand the mush issue with more wet climates. For me it is the margin of safety I need for the hydration it provides over a long period of time in my climate. Also, in my climate of hot for prolonged periods when it will still be well over a hundred degrees at 11 PM at night, I need that moisture retaining properties to keep plants hydrated. In my semi arid climate I get absolutely no breakdown of particle. That works for me. I can't speak for everyone and frankly don't care. I bought it, tried it over a period of time, tried many other things too, even turface. Have 900 pounds along my side yard where my trash cans sit. Frankly my opinion says thats the perfect use for it. Thats my opinion and if others like turface then thats what you should use. To dismiss something without a good tryout, scientific journals or not is kinda narrow minded though.

Even though I have attached this to your reply this is not actually aimed at you, but a generalization based on scientific facts of which there are none. Your a lawyer, help me out here.

 

[sorce]

Your an educated guy

Your a lawyer

Is that an oxymoron?

Well whatever it is, there is a lot of good info tween those 2 statements. And said so, well, unSmokelike.

Applause!

Its all climate. I hate both!
(substrates? Or quotes? You decide!)

Sorce

 

[michaelj]

Don't worry, they make us get the education before we show up for the law school ordeal.

Yeah, Smoke, I get it. And in this instance, since anecdotes are all we have, they're the most reliable source of information. I'm not one to disagree with others' success simply because they can't explain to me why it works. I was only saying I share in the curiosity over why and how these things work, rather than just the fact that they do or don't work.

 

[Dav4]

Well, these are going into the veggie garden to thicken up for a few years, then likely back into a colander... They all were anywhere from 18" to over 24" tall and had lots of roots. I loosened up the roots but need to get a better look at them down the road. Perhaps this fall, I'll bare root another one to see what the roots look like before planting it out.

 

[mcpesq817]

I'm a turface user. I won't use it on my more established trees or conifers, but for young, developing material, I've had good results using it. I usually cut it with something else like pumice and grit because I found that straight turface is prone to getting dry spots, especially if you use organic fertilizers. If it's cut, however, the issue goes away. Turface is cheap, and I'm not going to spend akadama prices on developing material (mostly seedlings).

Where I have used straight turface is on material that is collected from the field. The fine feeder root growth that first year is really incredible in straight turface. Turface in those situations does what it is designed to - to soak up extra moisture that you might have from field soil pockets that are still in the rootball. After that first year, I flatten the rootball, remove any remaining pockets of field soil, and repot in a different mix that may or may not contain surface. Here are some examples of dug material (a trident, a japanese maple, and a styrax) - roots after digging, and roots after one year in straight surface.

 

[markyscott]

I'm a turface user. I won't use it on my more established trees or conifers, but for young, developing material, I've had good results using it. I usually cut it with something else like pumice and grit because I found that straight turface is prone to getting dry spots, especially if you use organic fertilizers. If it's cut, however, the issue goes away. Turface is cheap, and I'm not going to spend akadama prices on developing material (mostly seedlings).

Where I have used straight turface is on material that is collected from the field. The fine feeder root growth that first year is really incredible in straight turface. Turface in those situations does what it is designed to - to soak up extra moisture that you might have from field soil pockets that are still in the rootball. After that first year, I flatten the rootball, remove any remaining pockets of field soil, and repot in a different mix that may or may not contain surface. Here are some examples of dug material (a trident, a japanese maple, and a styrax) - roots after digging, and roots after one year in straight surface.

Coarser soil produces a very different kind of root system.



Over time, how do you think these very different root systems will contribute to the development of the nebari?

 

[coh]

Someone needs to start a "turface users support group", and I suppose a "floor dry users support group." And while we're at it, why not an "I like procumbens foliage" support group for good measure.

Dave, I've got some juniper stock like that, which also needs to go into the ground. Problem is, my grow bed is pretty much full and I've already appropriated most of the former veggie garden.

 

[markyscott]

No reason to be defensive - I don't care what you grow your trees in. Your garden, your yard, your trees, your money. None of my business, really. I just posed a couple of questions:

1. Do you agree that the two maple root systems look different?
2. If so, will those differences change how the nebari of the tree develops?

 

[coh]

Who are you referring to? If me...I'm not being defensive, just having some fun. I also don't care what people use, but I have seen enough good trees grown in turface to know that it is not as evil as some make it out to be. If mcpesq then I'll leave it to him to address your questions...but I'll say that it's a tough comparison as the nebari in your picture has obviously been worked/developed over a long period. The ones in the preceding pics are much different, most having several very large roots...evidence of trees that whose root systems were not carefully developed from an early stage. I'm not sure if one can ever get from those pics to your pic? Not without layering or grafting, at least. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

 

[0soyoung]

1. Do you agree that the two maple root systems look different?
2. If so, will those differences change how the nebari of the tree develops?

1. Yes. In fact roots look quite different if grown is 'sticky' topsoil (which tends to produce a few large/thick roots regardless of whether it be in a pot or in the ground). in bark chips (which tends to make many wavy roots that are light colored, fleshy, and somewhat fragile roots), or in Turface (which tends to produce fine threads for roots). I see that pumice roots are approximately equivalent to those in Turface (which isn't too surprising since both are forms of hi-fired clay).
2. I think Ebihara's technique could be improved by also planting in sticky soil, but I expect it also would create nebari more like a flattened octopus instead of a nice round pancake (which might not be a bad thing). At any rate, the resistance the medium presents to root extension makes the greatest difference to the form of the nebari (aside from screwed to a plane or not).

 

[markyscott]

1. Yes. In fact roots look quite different if grown is 'sticky' topsoil (which tends to produce a few large/thick roots regardless of whether it be in a pot or in the ground). in bark chips (which tends to make many wavy roots that are light colored, fleshy, and somewhat fragile roots), or in Turface (which tends to produce fine threads for roots). I see that pumice roots are approximately equivalent to those in Turface (which isn't too surprising since both are forms of hi-fired clay).
2. ...

I wholly agree with much of what you said above. I used turface for many years and trees grew fine, but the roots tended to look like cotton candy - just like in the example shown. I believe that growing in pumice could produce similar fine roots if you used a similar grain size to turface. I'm not sure that I agree that pumice and turface will produce similar roots irrespective of grain size. The tree I posted was grown in a significant fraction of pumice and its roots look really different. I can't say for sure what would happen if I eliminated the other components and went with pure pumice because I never tried. But I'd expect the roots might not look like those in the turface example if I used a much coarser grain size pumice than that found in a bag of turface. I wanted to try to try a turface case too, because I wanted to see if similar results could be obtained with turface if it was the same grain size as pumice. But when you sieve out the < 1/4" fraction from a 50 lb bag of MVP, you get less than a quart. Too much effort.

1. ...
2. I think Ebihara's technique could be improved by also planting in sticky soil, but I expect it also would create nebari more like a flattened octopus instead of a nice round pancake (which might not be a bad thing). At any rate, the resistance the medium presents to root extension makes the greatest difference to the form of the nebari (aside from screwed to a plane or not).

WRT your point about the Ebihara technique, it's quite possible. I'd love to see an example where it had been tried. WRT your point about root extension, I agree, but I'd add grain size (actually pore size) as an additional important factor.

 

[michaelj]

I see that pumice roots are approximately equivalent to those in Turface (which isn't too surprising since both are forms of hi-fired clay).

My experience has been different. I would assume that this is something that varies from person to person, according to their climate and watering habits. For whatever reason, my experience with turface has been that the roots clumped in random spots in the soil, often far from the trunk, eschewing growth in other areas, which is bad for development of attractive nebari. Worse, in some instances, there were just hardly any roots when I went to repot. I had a few trees that were very similar and I deliberately repotted them into different soil mixtures, including some with pure pumice, pure turface, pure DE, etc. The ones in pure turface were the worst, consistently. So I pulled turface from my rotation completely.

It was good, in my climate and under my watering habits, as a medium for cuttings.