Hello, my name is Dave and I'm a turface user.

[Dav4]

No jumping here. I honestly don't care what you use - if it works for you it works for you. There are thousands of nurseries all over the country selling junipers potted in 100% organics and there are lots of people who grow trees in turface. Do what up you will, but don't make up a fight where none exists. I asked a question and got an answer - thanks and enjoy.

Scott

Definitely not making a fight, though I was surprised that there were more questions concerning the turface than the substrate I use for the junipers considering their future is bonsai and not the landscape nursery. I suppose I should ask if anyone else is growing out stock like this as I haven't seen it.

 

[Dav4]

If you wanted to discuss "planting junipers in a 100% organic mix of composted pine bark", maybe you should've titled this post a little differently.

Get off my back, Wayne. If you don't see the humor in the title based on the intensity of participation in the recent soil threads, then I really don't know what to say... It was meant as a joke, and apparently I'm the only one who got it.

 

[garywood]

Hi Dave, it's been documented that growing trees in a number of mediums "works". I'm a pragmatists and believe that you do what you have to do as long as you know how a soil works. The problem with "nursery soils" comes with time and improper re-potting. Just today, an old time bonsai friend came by with a large azalea that was collected several years ago. It wasn't cleaned initially. A mix of fine bark and some TURFACE like material, not sure what exactly, was on the bottom,top and sides. The roots were horrible! Root growth in two zones, top and bottom with no intermediate growth. I'm not saying it's the TURFACE or the pine bark or any combination but it is not knowing what a soil "does" and the assimilating of the two dissimilar soils. This is the same problem when transitioning nursery trees to bonsai pots. Some trees are easily bare-rooted some aren't. The trees that people aren't comfortable bare-rooting shouldn't have potential problem s left underneath the base of the tree. Organics or native soil under the base is an accident waiting to happen. So if you are satisfied with whatever medium you are using remember that 3- 5-10-15 yrs. down the road, someone has to deal with what has been done to the tree. Keep the base in a good medium if it isn't going to be bare-rooted in the future.
Just saw the latest reply. But it is food for thought

 

[Evilman626]

Get off my back, Wayne. If you don't see the humor in the title based on the intensity of participation in the recent soil threads, then I really don't know what to say... It was meant as a joke, and apparently I'm the only one who got it.

I get it. I find a lot of humor in soil debates.

 

[Dav4]

Hi Dave, it's been documented that growing trees in a number of mediums "works". I'm a pragmatists and believe that you do what you have to do as long as you know how a soil works. The problem with "nursery soils" comes with time and improper re-potting. Just today, an old time bonsai friend came by with a large azalea that was collected several years ago. It wasn't cleaned initially. A mix of fine bark and some TURFACE like material, not sure what exactly, was on the bottom,top and sides. The roots were horrible! Root growth in two zones, top and bottom with no intermediate growth. I'm not saying it's the TURFACE or the pine bark or any combination but it is not knowing what a soil "does" and the assimilating of the two dissimilar soils. This is the same problem when transitioning nursery trees to bonsai pots. Some trees are easily bare-rooted some aren't. The trees that people aren't comfortable bare-rooting shouldn't have potential problem s left underneath the base of the tree. Organics or native soil under the base is an accident waiting to happen. So if you are satisfied with whatever medium you are using remember that 3- 5-10-15 yrs. down the road, someone has to deal with what has been done to the tree. Keep the base in a good medium if it isn't going to be bare-rooted in the future.
Just saw the latest reply. But it is food for thought

As always Gary, thanks for your input. One of the reasons I feel comfortable using turface in my soil with my more developed bonsai is that it doesn't break down, so I don't worry as much about completely changing out the soil under the trunk of the big, old trees I have. With the junipers in this thread, the plan had always been to bare root them once the goals in top growth had been achieved, and I've found healthy junipers easily tolerated bare rooting. This is also the reason why I haven't tried pines in this medium yet, as they're not as resilient as junipers in my experience.

 

[bwaynef]

Get off my back, Wayne. If you don't see the humor in the title based on the intensity of participation in the recent soil threads, then I really don't know what to say... It was meant as a joke, and apparently I'm the only one who got it.

Touchy. In light of recent threads, I understand the titling of this one. I just didn't catch that the gist of this one was primarily about potting junipers in pine bark. Since you brought up recent threads, you're sure to know how hot-button Turface is. I find it odd that you brought it up and would rather others focus on something else.

Carry on.

 

[Dav4]

Touchy. In light of recent threads, I understand the titling of this one. I just didn't catch that the gist of this one was primarily about potting junipers in pine bark. Since you brought up recent threads, you're sure to know how hot-button Turface is. I find it odd that you brought it up and would rather others focus on something else.

Carry on.

The title was said tongue in cheek and was purely a poor attempt at humor (having to explain the joke is generally painful for everyone), and I thought my comments in the first post made it clear what the gist of the thread was about. Maybe it's me not being clear enough, or perhaps people might not be reading the initial post carefully enough. It doesn't matter as I think we're all on the same page now.

 

[Poink88]

Hi Dave, it's been documented that growing trees in a number of mediums "works". I'm a pragmatists and believe that you do what you have to do as long as you know how a soil works.

Thanks. Quoted for truth.

Soil mix is a recipe...just like food. You do not ask how one component works when eaten alone (say eating salt alone...that is ridiculous!). You have to see the entire composition and how they work but some are too ignorant to see that.

There is a range of good balanced substrate and various components, mixed properly, can help attain that. As you said...as long as you know how it works.

 

[Dav4]

I thought I'd update this thread today. In less then 18 months, the cuttings have put on nice size both in foliage and girth, and their root mass filled the pond baskets while being well ramified.

 

[wireme]

I thought I'd update this thread today. In less then 18 months, the cuttings have put on nice size both in foliage and girth, and their root mass filled the pond baskets while being well ramified.View attachment 80740 View attachment 80741 View attachment 80742 View attachment 80743

Nice, I've worked with a few nursery trees that looked to be in pure composted bark, was very impressed with the health of the roots and plants. How about trying one of these out in a shallow bonsai container with the same mix and watering?

 

[Paradox]

Thats alot of growth in 18 months. Nice job.

 

[Dav4]

Nice, I've worked with a few nursery trees that looked to be in pure composted bark, was very impressed with the health of the roots and plants. How about trying one of these out in a shallow bonsai container with the same mix and watering?

I may try that next spring...we will see. For me, seeing the top growth along with the great roots produced made me a believer in using soil conditioner in pond baskets. I may try some pines next year.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Turface is great in my opinion I've been keeping plants in containers for a long time, bonsai is relatively new for me though. But if something like akadama or pumice is better then I'd like to see data. Not anecdotes. Statistics is not the plural of anecdotes. I'm talking data. What physical property do other substrates have that make them bettter? Not cation exchange, not durability....

There is data about calciNed clay as a container media. See Carl Whitcomb plant propagation in containers. I'd love to see a controlled study evaluating the efficacy of lightly baked japanese clay balls. A lot of people who swear by this media still make drainage layers. Which has been scientifically debunked.

If something is better than turface than its zeolite. It's not akadama.

 

[barrosinc]

Turface is great in my opinion I've been keeping plants in containers for a long time, bonsai is relatively new for me though. But if something like akadama or pumice is better then I'd like to see data. Not anecdotes. Statistics is not the plural of anecdotes. I'm talking data. What physical property do other substrates have that make them bettter? Not cation exchange, not durability....

There is data about calciNed clay as a container media. See Carl Whitcomb plant propagation in containers. I'd love to see a controlled study evaluating the efficacy of lightly baked japanese clay balls. A lot of people who swear by this media still make drainage layers. Which has been scientifically debunked.

If something is better than turface than its zeolite. It's not akadama.

For what I have read, turface has a hydrophobic problem when fully dry and is the reason why using 100% turface may leave dry spots. I repeat myself, it is what I have read and never even touched it as it doesn't exist here.

 

[Smoke]

Turface is great in my opinion I've been keeping plants in containers for a long time, bonsai is relatively new for me though. But if something like akadama or pumice is better then I'd like to see data. Not anecdotes. Statistics is not the plural of anecdotes. I'm talking data. What physical property do other substrates have that make them bettter? Not cation exchange, not durability....

There is data about calciNed clay as a container media. See Carl Whitcomb plant propagation in containers. I'd love to see a controlled study evaluating the efficacy of lightly baked japanese clay balls. A lot of people who swear by this media still make drainage layers. Which has been scientifically debunked.

If something is better than turface than its zeolite. It's not akadama.

I have some data for you, your an idiot. Continue to use turface because I don't want you wasting MY akadama on idiots.

 

[brewmeister83]

Yay! Another soil thread where someone just hit Smoke's hot button. Popcorn time...

 

[sorce]

Doesn't everyone who uses kakadama
Put all that giant lava and pumice in there to keep it from shittying up the tree?

Let's post root pictures.

Dav4's ain't terrible.
Adair s Zelcova is in Boon mix yes?

Mines in oil dry.

The only root pad I ever seen as tight as mine is the Pine in the Bjorn video,
In Japan.

Not boasting, or comparing, just a statement. I have never seen an American root pad like that.

Too many types of akadama IMO,
Have I only seen the bad shit?

Sorce

 

[sdavis]

No jumping here. I honestly don't care what you use - if it works for you it works for you. There are thousands of nurseries all over the country selling junipers potted in 100% organics and there are lots of people who grow trees in turface. Do what up you will, but don't make up a fight where none exists. I asked a question and got an answer - thanks and enjoy.

Scott

For several years one of the largest conifer wholesale nurseries in Oregon (Iseli) has been growing pines and junipers in 100% fir bark with amendment (calcium carbonate) for pH control. It is inexpensive and works well for them.

 

[Dav4]

Thanks. That's the whole point of the thread, really. I suspect too many people avoid heavy organics in soil when developing trees for bonsai because they've heard how bad it is. At least with junipers, I've had much better results growing out material in straight soil conditioner then my standard soil mix. Throw it into a pond basket and you're really in business.

 

[coh]

I was talking to the people at Wee Tree a couple of years ago (was looking at some of their trees) and they said that after digging them out of the growing beds, they planted them in straight saw dust(*) for a year and got tremendous root growth. From personal experience, I've seen plants of all types grow extremely well in neglected mulch piles (chopped bark of various kinds)

(*) I don't know if I asked exactly what they meant, whether it was really fine material (what you'd normally think of as sawdust) or something coarser like the soil conditioner.