"Hard" Akadama?

[Smoke]

I dunno about Dario... but I'd call that inorganic by my understanding of older standards.

What we don't have is a standard of measure... so this measure is subjective. It's not so much a matter of what is is, as what the individual believes it to be.

From Dallas Bonsai's blog.... a visual of the various layers of earth from the mining of akadama.... kinda cool... looks pretty organic to me. lol But what do I know... I'm not as educated in sciences as many here apparently are.

All my best to all,

V

You forgot I have seen you drink. Lets use this analogy, if you order a virgin margarita all night and the bartender puts 10% tequila in them, are they still virgin?

 

[Poink88]

You forgot I have seen you drink. Lets use this analogy, if you order a virgin margarita all night and the bartender puts 10% tequila in them, are they still virgin?

First read this from post #22 and answer questions from post #28

BTW, neither a flying bat makes it a bird, nor a swimming whale makes it a fish. Likewise, an inorganic acting as organic does...doesn't make it organic. Something for you to ponder.

If I collect river sand with leaf/organic decay mixed...is that sand organic?
A copper necklace plated with gold, can it be called gold?

My question is, when do you call it one or the other?

 

[Smoke]

First read this from post #22 and answer questions from post #28

Your being black and white again. What you have done is introduce organics to your soil via sand. Sand is not clay. You cant get a CEC for sand, but you can get a CEC for akadama, something for you to ponder

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Yeah, you know...this approach might have some merit if this was high school - but it's not. There are many highly educated and experienced individuals here, obviously a number of scientists (including chemists, soil scientists, etc). What many of us don't have is the years of bonsai experience. I don't need to be "taught" how to think at this point in my life, so if someone has information of value, just post it and stop playing games. Otherwise this kind of thread is the result, and anything that is useful gets lost in the associated crap.

Chris

All highly educated people know that once you are on the path to learning something from someone who knows more than you, that you are in a symbiotic relationship with that person. I have a great deal of bonsai experience, which qualifies me to teach on those areas where I have that knowledge... I have no doubt that a five minute conversation with you or any other person here would yield a great many things where that role would be reversed on a number of subjects. The fact that we use a forum doesn't devalue the relationship or even the method.

Smoke can spoon feed people ideas to lead them to an epiphany if that's his teaching style... as he said... he wants people to work for it to a degree, because doubtlessly his many years of experience forced him to learn the hard way... without the benefit of those of us who can offer instant answers.

I don't want him to make it easy... I want it to be inspired and interactive in a positive way. I'm calling my friend out to challenge himself to be the better teacher I believe he can be... because this back and fourth between them benefits no one.... not even themselves. And your completely right about gems of ideas and learning being lost in the mud.

I'm never closed to being taught how to think... I find that is the most exhilarating life long learning process there is... because it's the only thing that truly matters. Even if I discard a new way of thinking about something, I still had a moment in a completely different place and that has value.

Being taught what to think is that which kills everything else that follows...

Kindly,

V

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

You forgot I have seen you drink. Lets use this analogy, if you order a virgin margarita all night and the bartender puts 10% tequila in them, are they still virgin?

Now I'm drooling.... good job. sigh..... lol

And my answer to your wonderful analogy would be no my dear..... it's been polluted with goodness.

(Leaves this reply pondering happy memories of good times in Cali.)

V

 

[Poink88]

Your being black and white again. What you have done is introduce organics to your soil via sand. Sand is not clay. You cant get a CEC for sand, but you can get a CEC for akadama, something for you to ponder

Excuses and you use alcohol mixes??? LOL

I am amused Smoke but I think I will leave you in your smoked chamber and have fun by yourself. Keep puffing!!!

I will thank you though...w/o that "claim" of yours none of this conversation would have happened. I am sure many (myself included) learned lots from it.

Good bye and I am out. Have a nice weekend!

BTW, you wife must be an angel.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Wow this whole thing is a throw back to the old Will Heath days except without the latin.

Thank god for small mercies.

And Dario.... my friend, if Smoke wants to make a alcoholic reference for my amusement and comprehension of his point... be kind and leave that alone for me. kk? thanks....

Smoke has special status to make fun of me with alcohol... he's had to put up with me completely plastered. lol

And really............ a wife jab? I kinda thought you were a more dignified man than that... or did I miss him taking some family pot shot at you recently.


V

 

[Paradox]

I too don't mind using a few brain cells and thinking things through. It was the basis for a lot of my education and career. However being led on a round robin journey through innuendo, association and veiled meaning just loses the point and promotes confusion and disinterest.

I am sure Smoke has a lot of knowledge to contribute, if he would just be a bit more straightforward. Sometimes, I think he prefers to play with us like a kid plays with ants and a magnifying glass rather than provide anything meaningful.

 

[Smoke]

All highly educated people know that once you are on the path to learning something from someone who knows more than you, that you are in a symbiotic relationship with that person. I have a great deal of bonsai experience, which qualifies me to teach on those areas where I have that knowledge... I have no doubt that a five minute conversation with you or any other person here would yield a great many things where that role would be reversed on a number of subjects. The fact that we use a forum doesn't devalue the relationship or even the method.

Smoke can spoon feed people ideas to lead them to an epiphany if that's his teaching style... as he said... he wants people to work for it to a degree, because doubtlessly his many years of experience forced him to learn the hard way... without the benefit of those of us who can offer instant answers.

I don't want him to make it easy... I want it to be inspired and interactive in a positive way. I'm calling my friend out to challenge himself to be the better teacher I believe he can be... because this back and fourth between them benefits no one.... not even themselves. And your completely right about gems of ideas and learning being lost in the mud.

I'm never closed to being taught how to think... I find that is the most exhilarating life long learning process there is... because it's the only thing that truly matters. Even if I discard a new way of thinking about something, I still had a moment in a completely different place and that has value.

Being taught what to think is that which kills everything else that follows...

Kindly,

V

Many,many years ago this very subject came up at BonsaiTALK. Teachers. I said then and I will say now, I do not consider myself a teacher. I come to the forums for entertainment, *( and I am never let down) and to pass some time about like interests. I refuse to be held responsible for others shortcomings on how they learn or how they disimminate information. All I can offer is my point of view and what I have learned over 30 years experience in the hobby.

Me personally, I do not see anyone here at this forum as a teacher, and I would hope no one percieves my points of view or experience coming from a teaching point of view.

People come here to discuss what they have done in bonsai. To some it may seem like teaching, and to others it may seem like passing on good information. I couldn't care less if anyone does anything with any piece of information I pass on. I do know based on many threads over the years that I have contributed greatly to some people way of thinking. The many trident maple chronicles we have here that sprouted from my original, yamadori junipers again, growing tridents from seed under window screen and the many hits at my blog also watching and reading what I have done.



I think I have earned a hell of a lot more respect than that.....

 

[iant]

When someone is talking about the properties of a component of their substrate in bonsai I think organic refers more to the water absorptive properties of the particles more than it refers to the primordial origins of the particle. Example "if you live in a hotter and drier area use a higher percentage organic."
So I consider akadama to be an 'organic' component. It's not technically the right term but it seems to be common usage...
Ian

 

[Smoke]

Wow this whole thing is a throw back to the old Will Heath days except without the latin.

Thank god for small mercies.

And Dario.... my friend, if Smoke wants to make a alcoholic reference for my amusement and comprehension of his point... be kind and leave that alone for me. kk? thanks....

Smoke has special status to make fun of me with alcohol... he's had to put up with me completely plastered. lol

And really............ a wife jab? I kinda thought you were a more dignified man than that... or did I miss him taking some family pot shot at you recently.


V

Just to catch you up, and for those that remember...Dario "is" the new Will Heath.

It even started with pots just like Will did. Will thought that Tokoname pots were stupid expensive and Dario thought converting baking dishes was the way to go.......

Actually Vic my wife is undergoing Chemo therapy right now for breast cancer. I have no idea where that came from.

 

[Smoke]

I too don't mind using a few brain cells and thinking things through. It was the basis for a lot of my education and career. However being led on a round robin journey through innuendo, association and veiled meaning just loses the point and promotes confusion and disinterest.

I am sure Smoke has a lot of knowledge to contribute, if he would just be a bit more straightforward. Sometimes, I think he prefers to play with us like a kid plays with ants and a magnifying glass rather than provide anything meaningful.

If you think I have something to contribute you should read the blog. Forums such as this used to be filled with just that kind of content back when. It is people new that know the whole thing and treat people like they are stupid or something that has jaded peoples content. If you feel you can learn something from Darios year of experience I suggest you follow his blog.

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

I'm not excusing any of his tactics.... hence the bit where I stated I was calling him to come back to a higher level of contribution on these kinds of things.

But.....

Having known Al before Bnut was born... and a few old timers left like Vance and myself were here... I watched Al pour out years of effort and documentation on people who gave glib thanks for years of effort being lump fed to them. And further watched all that effort be completely wiped off the map when the operator took down the site and never let it live on without him.

So.....

If sometimes you feel like ur getting the bad end of a stick from him... your probably right... but as someone who appreciates him and knows what he has done from many over the span of decades, I'm not without some forgiveness. And don't think for a minute I haven't been on the bad end of his stick before... I have, and usually it was crappy communications in a medium that is challenging in the best of times.

I've seen no-hit-wonders walk in here and act like they know everything because they read it somewhere... or people giving some incredibly bad advice because they didn't take into account where the other person lives... and it's easy to understand why people like Al can get exasperated with trying to explain the same thing to each new wave... all the while having no one here who can really inspire something in him because he's often beyond the majority of the people who come here.

Is Al a hardass.... oh god yes.... but I love him anyway... cuz he took the time to teach me a lot when I was a wide eyed noob who had the good sense to appreciate it.

Just me saying what I think of Al... as I said... not excusing... just saying.

All the best,

V

 

[coh]

All highly educated people know that once you are on the path to learning something from someone who knows more than you, that you are in a symbiotic relationship with that person. I have a great deal of bonsai experience, which qualifies me to teach on those areas where I have that knowledge... I have no doubt that a five minute conversation with you or any other person here would yield a great many things where that role would be reversed on a number of subjects. The fact that we use a forum doesn't devalue the relationship or even the method.

Smoke can spoon feed people ideas to lead them to an epiphany if that's his teaching style... as he said... he wants people to work for it to a degree, because doubtlessly his many years of experience forced him to learn the hard way... without the benefit of those of us who can offer instant answers.

I don't want him to make it easy... I want it to be inspired and interactive in a positive way. I'm calling my friend out to challenge himself to be the better teacher I believe he can be... because this back and fourth between them benefits no one.... not even themselves. And your completely right about gems of ideas and learning being lost in the mud.

I'm never closed to being taught how to think... I find that is the most exhilarating life long learning process there is... because it's the only thing that truly matters. Even if I discard a new way of thinking about something, I still had a moment in a completely different place and that has value.

Being taught what to think is that which kills everything else that follows...

Kindly,

V

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have no interest in getting into a debate about what it means to "be taught how to think"...it appears we have differing viewpoints and I'm going to leave it at that.

As for "Smoke's teaching style", he's pretty much admitted a couple of times in this very thread that he isn't here to teach, he's here for entertainment. So to him, "raising the pinata" isn't a way to get people to think, it's a way for him to find amusement. I think that pretty much says it all. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

Chris

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

If you think I have something to contribute you should read the blog. Forums such as this used to be filled with just that kind of content back when. It is people new that know the whole thing and treat people like they are stupid or something that has jaded peoples content. If you feel you can learn something from Darios year of experience I suggest you follow his blog.

Well slap me silly... your last two posts were short versions of my big one at the end, but mine had a dollop or two of other goodness thrown in.

As to your wife..... wow.... I hope she's getting the light side of the effects. If you need anything please don't forget that my JOB is around helping people cope with cancer man... I'm just a phone call away.

XOX,

V

 

[GrimLore]

I learned enough in the last few years that I never have and never will need to use akadama... Ironic?

Grimmy

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have no interest in getting into a debate about what it means to "be taught how to think"...it appears we have differing viewpoints and I'm going to leave it at that.

As for "Smoke's teaching style", he's pretty much admitted a couple of times in this very thread that he isn't here to teach, he's here for entertainment. So to him, "raising the pinata" isn't a way to get people to think, it's a way for him to find amusement. I think that pretty much says it all. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

Chris

And I thank you for the kindness of your acknowledgement... I completely respect that your ideas on that may be very different than my own.

I've learned enough from him over long association to know what his teaching style is... he wants to teach, for whatever bluster may accompany it... or he wouldn't bother. Profound lack of respect for non-overseas trained artists is a rampant problem in the US. I've seen 'respected' artists act like complete asses and be kissed and coddled for worse than anything I've ever seen Smoke do... again.... not an excuse... just a comment. I think we all benefit from courting our better nature... though I know my better nature can be nauseating to Al at times... I fancy that he loves me past that like I love him past being a hard ass.

V

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I have no interest in getting into a debate about what it means to "be taught how to think"...it appears we have differing viewpoints and I'm going to leave it at that.

As for "Smoke's teaching style", he's pretty much admitted a couple of times in this very thread that he isn't here to teach, he's here for entertainment. So to him, "raising the pinata" isn't a way to get people to think, it's a way for him to find amusement. I think that pretty much says it all. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

Chris

Besides; if you raise the piñata too high you are libel to catch one in gonads. That by itself would be entertaining.

 

[JudyB]

if you order a virgin margarita all night and the bartender puts 10% tequila in them, are they still virgin?

I'm going right out and get me some of those margaritas if it's going to make me a virgin again! How cool is that! (or does it make the bartender a virgin?) Either way is ok by me!

You guys are fun to watch...

I only know that my trees do love it, and it works. Whatever it is.

 

[Vance Wood]

And I thank you for the kindness of your acknowledgement... I completely respect that your ideas on that may be very different than my own.

I've learned enough from him over long association to know what his teaching style is... he wants to teach, for whatever bluster may accompany it... or he wouldn't bother. Profound lack of respect for non-overseas trained artists is a rampant problem in the US. I've seen 'respected' artists act like complete asses and be kissed and coddled for worse than anything I've ever seen Smoke do... again.... not an excuse... just a comment. I think we all benefit from courting our better nature... though I know my better nature can be nauseating to Al at times... I fancy that he loves me past that like I love him past being a hard ass.

V

This I agree with absolutely. A couple of years ago we had a visiting master of world wide repute do a demo for out club. Let me put it this way: His fee by far outdistanced the quality of the work he performed. It is sad that sometimes these guys visit a small venue and assume that these rubes know nothing so they give exactly that. My opinion on doing these things is that if you condescend to those to whom you do your work as being below you, just remember somebody has to hold the ladder while you climb on a shaky roof unless you fall on your arrogant ass.

As far as Al goes he is one of the good guys-----mostly; unless he is in turd mode.