Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
@Brian Van Fleet I was just pondering the last hour of removing that very branch! It is poker straight for to long...and makes the tree seem awkward.
Thanks for the virtual!
Thanks for the virtual!
Gotta love when wire does its job...Kojo No Mai
- Thread starter Cadillactaste
- Start date
BVF did a virt of pretty much what I said to do.
By the way... Did you notice what TomB said about when to wire? He said young branches. When they're still green and flexible.
That's pretty much true for all deciduous. I've been advocating it, but that's the first time I've heard anyone else on this forum advocating it.
By the way... Did you notice what TomB said about when to wire? He said young branches. When they're still green and flexible.
That's pretty much true for all deciduous. I've been advocating it, but that's the first time I've heard anyone else on this forum advocating it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
He didn't remove them from the virt, but he pretty much said he thought they'd have to go:
Anyway, it is true that you didn't ask for styling input, so probably shouldn't have said anything. Looking forward to seeing what you eventually decide to do.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
But I pulled them from that direction...so I thought it no longer applied. Or my brain thought that direction.
This may just always be an ugly duckling that sits on my bench. But...it's my ugly ducking. I will never win any awards for it. It has to many flaws. But...the pot is a killer pot.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Not sure you or anyone would want to see this tree...I chewed on it...even corrected the crossing branch. And...in my mind's eye...I tamed it to much. I'm not as happy with it as I was before that branch crossed. So I'm really struggling with the direction I take with this tree. The rules are guildlines...the reason I bought this tree was for the purpose of not taming it overly. I didn't want a well manicured tree that fit the rules. But a slightly untamed one...that was that way by the works of my own hand. So...yeah, I understand what everyone is offering as in advice is solid and sound advice. I'm just not sure in the end I will keep with that line of design. Wishing to Not offend anyone. But...I love the naturalistic nature of the characteristics of the untamed tree in this cultivar. I find potted trees that aren't bonsai more appealing than ones overly worked in my google search and Pinterest searches.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Though I must admit... @TomB his tree is/was stunning. But...very structured and you could tell he knew what he was doing. His tree is one that I can say broke that rule of thinking all wired manipulated Kojo No Mai were unappealing. But...my tree doesn't have his trees bones. I don't like the main trunk of mine. So...in following the rules,the overall vision is distracted by that trunk and where my eyes fall. And with the untamed branch crossing...not so much.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"I tamed it to much"
This is your problem ;-) In my experience with prunus and malus (apples), extremely hard pruning is the key to inducing "wildness" into them. They have boring branching when left on their own. Hard pruning injects ruggedness into the branches. Wild isn't easy to pull off--and takes some aggressive pruning, ask Walter Pall.
Your tree indeed has the bones to make a very good tree. You've just got to much confusion with all that branching to see it.
I'll say it again (and I nag in good humor here ;-)), you have to get past the thought that pushing some discipline and character into branches with pruning is "taming" the tree. It is not. You also have to learn to be a bit more aggressive in hard pruning. Sure, it's going to look kind of stark for a year or two, but having a bonsai in show shape all the time is impossible. You're being timid and rationalizing when the tree requires some bold moves-- I know-- nag, nag, nag, ;-)
Also, cherries and apples tend to not bloom as well when they aren't pruned. Apples, for instance, require specific hard pruning regimens to build up flowering spurs on branches and to produce fruit reliably. Orchard apples are pruned regularly to remove older growth to preserve the tree and to force more blossoms and resulting fruit...Cherries are similar--
http://www.wikihow.com/Prune-a-Cherry-Tree
This is your problem ;-) In my experience with prunus and malus (apples), extremely hard pruning is the key to inducing "wildness" into them. They have boring branching when left on their own. Hard pruning injects ruggedness into the branches. Wild isn't easy to pull off--and takes some aggressive pruning, ask Walter Pall.
Your tree indeed has the bones to make a very good tree. You've just got to much confusion with all that branching to see it.
I'll say it again (and I nag in good humor here ;-)), you have to get past the thought that pushing some discipline and character into branches with pruning is "taming" the tree. It is not. You also have to learn to be a bit more aggressive in hard pruning. Sure, it's going to look kind of stark for a year or two, but having a bonsai in show shape all the time is impossible. You're being timid and rationalizing when the tree requires some bold moves-- I know-- nag, nag, nag, ;-)
Also, cherries and apples tend to not bloom as well when they aren't pruned. Apples, for instance, require specific hard pruning regimens to build up flowering spurs on branches and to produce fruit reliably. Orchard apples are pruned regularly to remove older growth to preserve the tree and to force more blossoms and resulting fruit...Cherries are similar--
http://www.wikihow.com/Prune-a-Cherry-Tree
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
This is that same branch that I tried to talk you into taking off last year.....
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
This is that same branch that I tried to talk you into taking off last year.....
I see that one going Judy...back then I had not wired it fully and was just left meh...with the wiring job at hand...and didn't touch it.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Yeah, I think it will give you a whole new outlook for the tree. It may be startling at first as it will remove some height, but you'll see that the rest of the tree comes into focus much better at that point.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Here goes...I took another photo...edited it. I know I must feel like to some...I'm beating my head against the wall. But...I do not like the branch when it's not crossing.
Here it is...removing one branch and cutting back another real hard. The crossing branch in my mind's eye. Gives it an untamed appearance.
Here it is...removing one branch and cutting back another real hard. The crossing branch in my mind's eye. Gives it an untamed appearance.
Trust me on this, Darlene: even with the crossed branches resolved, this tree still breaks plenty of rules! You've only corrected the felonies, not the misdemeanors, not to mention the local ordinances! Lol!!!
Remember, TomB advised a hard cut back. (Which you did not do last year. )
By the way... I think I understood you to say that you're not happy with the trunk, and having that crossed branch flaw misdirected the eye away from the trunk? Right?
If that's the case, perhaps the style you are trying to force this tree into is wrong for this tree. Bonsai is all about the trunk. The trunk is the soul of the tree. Everything else is secondary. Flowers, nebari, branches, ramification, pot... Everything is secondary to the trunk.
If, on the other hand, you don't care about what the trunk looks like, you just like the flowers, or color of the leaves, and such... Then what you're doing is not bonsai. It's "container gardening" or something. But not bonsai.
TomB's tree broke a lot of rules: that cascade branch was pretty heavy, and dropped down out of the apex. Definately a rule breaker! But he made it work.
You need to find a way to make your trunk work for you.
Remember, TomB advised a hard cut back. (Which you did not do last year. )
By the way... I think I understood you to say that you're not happy with the trunk, and having that crossed branch flaw misdirected the eye away from the trunk? Right?
If that's the case, perhaps the style you are trying to force this tree into is wrong for this tree. Bonsai is all about the trunk. The trunk is the soul of the tree. Everything else is secondary. Flowers, nebari, branches, ramification, pot... Everything is secondary to the trunk.
If, on the other hand, you don't care about what the trunk looks like, you just like the flowers, or color of the leaves, and such... Then what you're doing is not bonsai. It's "container gardening" or something. But not bonsai.
TomB's tree broke a lot of rules: that cascade branch was pretty heavy, and dropped down out of the apex. Definately a rule breaker! But he made it work.
You need to find a way to make your trunk work for you.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Maybe that is what this tree needs to be...a container plant. For I don't like the looks of a well manicured Kojo No Mai. I think you just nailed it for me! Thanks Adair...I do appreciate it.
I have a potted hibiscus tree. I am fine with not having this for a bonsai. For...I would much prefer having it look as it does...then try to conform it. I will no longer look at it in bonsai relation...that takes all the rules out of the equation.Edit: I do love the direction it went from when it first arrived...I think it looks like a cute little plant. Not bonsai...I do see me cutting it back as in the last photo. For I feel it's still to much. But...I do think it's cute. Without the rules to apply.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
How about go one step further than your edit? Crossing branch does not bother me all that much to be honest.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
@JudyB food for thought. It so needs thinned...I do see that in the overall style currently as it sits. I'm not saying no. Will chew on it.
Thanks also for your comment on the crossing branch. I only like this tree if that branch crosses. Crazy for some to grasp...your virtual does make it appear more of a cascade by doing that.
All depends on...if I am going to see this as a bonsai or not. For bonsai...it's a bit more refined. Which is not unflattering yet still allows me to feel it's slightly untamed. By that crossing branch.
Thanks also for your comment on the crossing branch. I only like this tree if that branch crosses. Crazy for some to grasp...your virtual does make it appear more of a cascade by doing that. All depends on...if I am going to see this as a bonsai or not. For bonsai...it's a bit more refined. Which is not unflattering yet still allows me to feel it's slightly untamed. By that crossing branch.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
@JudyB
I believe I will take a bit of height off the right side of the tree. It's far taller than the left. But...at this time. I'm done messing with it. I do appreciate everyone's advice. And...am still unclear if this is now considered a garden plant. But...I like the direction it's going. I think it's cute. I think the overall shape of it works with what the trunk had to offer. So...if it remains a garden plant I can live with it. I'm very pleased at where it's at currently.
I believe I will take a bit of height off the right side of the tree. It's far taller than the left. But...at this time. I'm done messing with it. I do appreciate everyone's advice. And...am still unclear if this is now considered a garden plant. But...I like the direction it's going. I think it's cute. I think the overall shape of it works with what the trunk had to offer. So...if it remains a garden plant I can live with it. I'm very pleased at where it's at currently.
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JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
There you go. one step after the other...
