Gotta love when wire does its job...Kojo No Mai

[Adair M]

Darlene,

The "After" picture is worse. The branch parallels the main trunk line, and goes down back down towards the roots.

To get the effect you're after, something has to go!

First off, deciduous trees are best styled by growing them out rather than trying to wire hard wood into position later. But seeing as you have this tree...

Your favorite part is that branch that you want to have cascading down towards the viewer in front, yes? It unfortunately crosses the line of that lower trunk coming off the nebari. Or do it appears.

I would return the position of your cascading branch back to how it appears in the "Before" picture, and either remove that bottom trunk entirely, or try to reposition it so that goes more to the back. (I'm thinking remove it... It appears to be in the inside of a curve.).

The other issue is the horizontal branch: in the "Before" image, it appears you have the cascading branch above it crossing over it and coming forward.

In the "After" image, you have that upper cascading branch crossing under it.

They both look awkward. The problem is the heavy, no taper, horizontal branch! Consider removing it! It's really just in the way.

I know, I know... That's a lot to chew on! Before you do any cuts, get a cloth and place it over the branches that you might remove, take a picture and study it.

Now... One more thing...

The pot you've chosen, with the high right side, depicts the side of the mountain, or cliff. It's like it's the right side of the picture frame. But then, you've styled branches that cross over the top of it... If this tree were hanging onto the cliff, branches wouldn't be growing back into the cliff.

Now, I know you want this to be wild, and break the rules, but you can't break every rule! I mean, yeah, it's your tree, you can do what you like, and if you like it, then that's fine. But the "rules" are guidelines that attempt to describe what looks pleasing to the eye for the majority of the time.

As to how a deciduous tree looks with leaves? Like a green mass of leaves. You really can't see the structure most of the time. Which is why the big bonsai shows in Japan occur in the winter. That's when you can see the structure. In the summer, a poor deciduous tree full of leaves can look just as nice as an excellent deciduous tree full of leaves. During the winter... That's when the truth is revealed.

 

[Adair M]

Okay boys...I think I got a bit of direction. One suggested bringing the lower branch to the front. Which is what I was trying to accomplish with that crossing branch. Thoughts on this.

@Adair this may have been what you were talking about the entire time. I had left the bottom branch to the back and hated it. I sort of like this though...
View attachment 97158

Ah! That's better!

I was making my long post as you were posting this one!

Now see what you can do about that top one!

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Adair M ...I seemed to have tunnel vision. With thinking of ending up with a tree that I posted as an example it's exactly what I do not wish to have it look like.

For the section that goes over the back of the pot. I'm not set on that...it allows a nice canopy shape. But...it goes the opposite direction than the rest of the trees. Which did bother me. I would be lying if I said otherwise.

The top branch...hm-mm

 

[rockm]

I have to agree with Adair. This is not a compact tree. It is visually awkward and aimless and ultimately frustrating.

By keeping those branches so long, you are falling into a trap that beginners can take decades to get out of--branches that are far too long for the trees they're attached to.

Take a look around at most bonsai hobbyists' trees and you will find branches that are way too long for the tree they're on. I know that's what a lot of my deciduous trees developed over the years. A couple of my professional bonsaiist friends say too-long branches are the most common thing they run across with even advanced bonsai that are brought to the,

That length comes from being too timid in pushing them back. Cutting off a particularly twiggy section of an old branch is VERY hard to do, especially if you've spent 10 years letting it get that way.

But ultimately, those long branches HAVE to be hard pruned to induce back budding and more realism into the branch.
Down the road you will curse yourself for leaving the branches so long. One day, you will probably "see" your mistake. I know I did one afternoon with several of my trees. The resulting hackathon was horrifying ;-)

If this were mine, I'd hack EVERYTHING back by half to induce twiggier growth and improve the tree's outline.

As you have discovered wiring old deciduous wood is dangerous and mostly futile. D trees are best developed with cut and grow.

This is an example of what I'm talking about. The first photo is of my live oak with longish branching that I hadn't pruned back for years .I convinced myself that those longer branches somehow "added" to the tree's character. Far from it. they blunted it. The second photo is a couple of years after my bonsai nursery owner friends and I hacked everything back by at least half and removed redundant and crossing branching. The tree now has a lot more compact cohesive image.

 

[rockm]

Still more work to do in thinning branching out.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I'm wanting a cascade...but, it's beginning to look more windswept. But...it needs to grow some length. I get what your saying @rockm but I don't like this particular tree cut back. All the examples of it done that way I absolutely hate. Honestly...hate. They lose the wild look that is the nature of the tree itself. Trust me...I will be cutting back other trees on my bench. I do get that concept. I wanted a wild cascade for this one. With allowing the natural contorted sections to also show. This one may always be my ugly duckling that breaks a few rules. Breaking less may make the others a tad more acceptable. It's not a large tree. It's 12" wide by 13" tall now that it's been tweaked.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Still more work to do in thinning branching out.

It really is a lovely tree!

 

[rockm]

I'm wanting a cascade...but, it's beginning to look more windswept. But...it needs to grow some length. I get what your saying @rockm but I don't like this particular tree cut back. All the examples of it done that way I absolutely hate. Honestly...hate. They lose the wild look that is the nature of the tree itself. Trust me...I will be cutting back other trees on my bench. I do get that concept. I wanted a wild cascade for this one. With allowing the natural contorted sections to also show. This one may always be my ugly duckling that breaks a few rules. Breaking less may make the others a tad more acceptable. It's not a large tree. It's 12" wide by 13" tall now that it's been tweaked.
View attachment 97166

I'm all for breaking rules, but I also know that sometimes overlooking them leads to a confusing end. Wavering between a windswept and cascade show the tree is just confusing visually. You're also caught in the "cut back--looking" trap. Hard pruning is a means to an end. The abrupt transitions you're afraid of don't last. This tree would look a lot "Wilder" if some sort of ramification carried the twisting image instead of relaying on visually heavier single branches...

 

[Cadillactaste]

I actually like the top branch as it once was. I feel it had less of a windswept by bringing that branch toward the viewer a tad. Sorry @Adair...but I do like the overall style without the crossing branches.

I didn't put the stand back out to photograph. Just placed this on the top shelf of the bench for the photo. I'm much more drawn to the overall tree with that top branch back to where it once was.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Cut back to build ramification when their branches become thick you lose the whimsical look of the tree. I am thinking long term...to have a structure that can carry thick branches. Keeping it hopefully airy. I look at the the entire picture. Every tree that was cut back...I do not like. Those which were not...I'm drawn to.

 

[rockm]

Just about every tree here--including the pines
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/japanese-collection/

and here
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/japanese-collection/

have been cut back severely over the years. Some so drastically you would not recognize them... I happened across a 1976 copy of the inaugural book for the collection in an old book store last weekend. Looking through it at the 40-year-old photos of the donated Japanese collection when they arrived shows how much work has gone into them over the years.

Your only seeing the next five yards for your tree, not the entire field. With deciduous trees you have to think that long term and how things will develop, not like pines where it's mostly pull up-wire in place. I'd bet in 10 years, you will look at this tree and say "WTF was I thinking." I say that because I've been there and done that -- repeatedly.

Is that cherry yours?.

 

[whfarro]

Been following this thread. I have a few very young Kojo No Mai cherries as well. This one was just naturally saying windswept to me. Because these tend to get brittle and can be a challenge to wire later on, I am "encouraging" that direction. As I am still growing this one out, these branches will likely be pruned back in years to come. For now is just going with the flow. Should flower in a couple of weeks. Can't wait.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Just about every tree here--including the pines
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/japanese-collection/

and here
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/japanese-collection/

have been cut back severely over the years. Some so drastically you would not recognize them... I happened across a 1976 copy of the inaugural book for the collection in an old book store last weekend. Looking through it at the 40-year-old photos of the donated Japanese collection when they arrived shows how much work has gone into them over the years.

Your only seeing the next five yards for your tree, not the entire field. With deciduous trees you have to think that long term and how things will develop, not like pines where it's mostly pull up-wire in place. I'd bet in 10 years, you will look at this tree and say "WTF was I thinking." I say that because I've been there and done that -- repeatedly.

Is that cherry yours?.

I totally get that...I do. I totally agree with you. If I could find some well developed Kojo No Mai's that had what your describing. I would be more apt to cut it back. It's the only tree on my bench...That I do not see this way. And...years to come...I may totally agree...and opt for another tree of this cultivar to work with entirely. Or...pass it by. Because...it's bloom is actually short lived. For another species entirely. But...I do love this tree in leaf. Well at least last year. Who knows what this will now look like in leaf. Loved the canopy shape of it last year.

Again...I do agree with you on cutting back to build ramification and even taper. I'm cutting things back in my other projects on my bench. If that makes any sense...that I do grasp the need for such direction. This one...breaks the rules in my mind's eye. But I do appreciate your offering up some sound advice. I know it's very sound...and half my brain gets it. The other half...refuses to have a tree I dislike on my bench. I would sooner part ways with it. Than do what most likely needs done. I'm sort of stubborn that way. Be it the auburn hair...or my Irish heritage I'm uncertain. But...again, I do appreciate your trying to get me to see reason.

No, the photos I pulled from Pinterest. Which...sadly is ones just pinning photos with no information but a species name if your lucky with that. But...I do look there from time to time pinning trees to a folder to admire later.

 

[TomB]

Cut back to build ramification when their branches become thick you lose the whimsical look of the tree. I am thinking long term...to have a structure that can carry thick branches. Keeping it hopefully airy. I look at the the entire picture. Every tree that was cut back...I do not like. Those which were not...I'm drawn to.
View attachment 97176

That's my tree, so I hope you're using it as an example of a good one rather than a bad one

Don't worry, no need to answer - regardless, the flowers look good in the image, but the tree itself has many weaknesses. More recently, it looked like this:



A slightly more refined image, but by no means perfect. Unfortunately the tree's now dead, so there's no scope for improving it further.

I think you are getting some good advice here, on cutting back and structuring the tree. It might be an idea to just leave it alone for the next month and enjoy the flowers. Then look at it again with some of the comments you've had here in mind.

 

[coh]

visually awkward and aimless

This is a good description of how I feel looking at this tree. I was playing around a bit with photoshop, I don't know if this is an improvement in your (Darlene's) eyes (or anyone else's for that matter) or not but it seems to have more flow. I removed most of that long straight horizontal branch and the branch that shoots straight down, then "re-grew" (the wonders of technology) branching with more movement from that point. I kind of like the flow of the current top branch.

I don't know, but here is what I came up with. You'd still have to grow finer branches and twigs, but the flowers might look nice hanging off this kind of branching?

 

[Cadillactaste]

That's my tree, so I hope you're using it as an example of a good one rather than a bad one

Don't worry, no need to answer - regardless, the flowers look good in the image, but the tree itself has many weaknesses. More recently, it looked like this:

A slightly more refined image, but by no means perfect. Unfortunately the tree's now dead, so there's no scope for improving it further.

I think you are getting some good advice here, on cutting back and structuring the tree. It might be an idea to just leave it alone for the next month and enjoy the flowers. Then look at it again with some of the comments you've had here in mind.

Sorry...the photo I shared looked far different than the one you shared. Which is stunning! I had thought all the branch structure was thick as the on cascading branch it seemed. (I had read the branches get real thick on these.) I am thrilled that you offered a better look at your tree. And am amazed by the bones of what you have started there.

Those branches don't look near as thick as what I first imagined. I assumed them extremely thick. The overall structure is lovely...I'm sorry to hear it's now dead. I would love to pick your brain on maybe your progression and what you learned from it. And...if you know what caused its death.

I absolutely hate finding trees and not knowing anything about them. I feel I hit the mother load by your commenting to my thread. Again...I am sorry I came across as a hater. That was a lovely tree.

 

[rockm]

That's my tree, so I hope you're using it as an example of a good one rather than a bad one

Don't worry, no need to answer - regardless, the flowers look good in the image, but the tree itself has many weaknesses. More recently, it looked like this:



A slightly more refined image, but by no means perfect. Unfortunately the tree's now dead, so there's no scope for improving it further.

I think you are getting some good advice here, on cutting back and structuring the tree. It might be an idea to just leave it alone for the next month and enjoy the flowers. Then look at it again with some of the comments you've had here in mind.

I suspected this cherry had lean bones and more ramification that was visible in the first photo...

A look at some others--http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t10463-prunus-question

 

[TomB]

Sorry...the photo I shared looked far different than the one you shared. Which is stunning! I had thought all the branch structure was thick as the on cascading branch it seemed. (I had read the branches get real thick on these.) I am thrilled that you offered a better look at your tree. And am amazed by the bones of what you have started there.

Those branches don't look near as thick as what I first imagined. I assumed them extremely thick. The overall structure is lovely...I'm sorry to hear it's now dead. I would love to pick your brain on maybe your progression and what you learned from it. And...if you know what caused its death.

I absolutely hate finding trees and not knowing anything about them. I feel I hit the mother load by your commenting to my thread. Again...I am sorry I came across as a hater. That was a lovely tree.

Thanks for the kind words, and don't worry I didn't think you were a hater

As you asked, this is a bit of a development sequence - you can see the phases it went through over the years - what changed, and also what didn't change much.


2000




2003



2004




2005


2010


2012



2012



2014



2015 (again)




In terms of what happened to this tree, it became infected with bacterial canker. I tried treating it and cutting out the infection, but after cutting back there wasn't much left to restyle as a convincing bonsai. I decided not to keep it and grow it on again, because I was concerned it might still harbour some infection that would spread to my other prunus trees. So I trashed it a few weeks ago.

Some pointers I picked up along the way: I made a few mistakes - often through inaction - and could have probably speeded up the development considerably by being more decisive earlier on. That is your challenge now I think.

In a bonsai pot (or any pot) the trunks and branches of these trees don't thicken significantly. It is difficult to develop taper, without repeated and severe cut-backs.

Wiring is best done on new shoots while still flexible (even green) - you need thin wire, applied relatively loosely.

Developing ramification is not that easy. You tend to get multiple shoots from the same locations, which remain relatively short. This gives an impression of dense branching, but is actually a problem because you end up with 'lumps'. This is most visible in the 2012 and 2014 images. It's a similar growth pattern to the crotch shoots you get in junipers. It's tempting to keep these, so you get a good show of flowers, but I think that's a mistake in terms of overall development. I think one needs to go in quite hard and thin out ruthlessly.

Hope all that's kind of useful. If I had your tree, I'd probably go for a much smaller, simpler image that could be achieved relatively quickly. I think these trees need to be cut back hard - much harder than one might think at first - in order to develop a pleasing final image as a bonsai rather than a pot plant. It's difficult to bring oneself to do that sometimes, when the branching and flowers are attractive. However as rockm said above, one needs to think several years ahead.

 

[Cadillactaste]

This was a stunning tree. This I think my favorite angle and such. You can see your developing into the exact ramification needed for a well put together cascade.


I'm not sure I can get past the long branches with flowers thought. I actually cut way back last year. (To my thinking.)


To this...was drastic for me. I'm still struggling with the not having the crossing branch. I liked the somewhat untamed natural look it had.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here's a compromise; forgive me if you weren't looking for styling options, just saw all the hubbub.
I've spent too many years working to make the best of bad branches, when the reality is, you can grow good branches far faster. I'd start by removing the straight out branch, and relaxing the angle of the one below it, tightening the angle of the one above, and get a little continuity to the chaos.
Looks great in bloom. It will fill in.

Eventually you'll need to commit to a direction. The right suckers kill the movement to the left, and is an awkward-feeling attempt to balance the movement to the left. I'd get rid of them too...