Getting collected trees into a nice pot

[mattspinniken]

I have been collecting trees and putting them into wooden boxes for the last 3 or 4 years. My survival rate has been very good overall and trees are healthy. I am starting to look for pots for a number of my trees and I am worried that the process of going from wooden box to small container will be like a second collection for them and they will suffer from it.

When I first started collecting my theory was bigger training boxes are better. Now I am starting to think that the smallest possible pot or box is best right after collection as long as I don't need to trim many roots at all during collection. I am not collecting things that need to be "grown out". I am just looking for vigor. Maybe a small pot but mulched into a bigger box for the first year? Any thoughts?

 

[sorce]

A couple colander years.

Larch mostly?

I don't care what species it is.

A couple colander years should ready anything for a pot. IMO.

Sorce

 

[mattspinniken]

A couple colander years.

I havent tried a colander yet, although everyone keeps talking positively about them. I sort of think they are ugly.

 

[sorce]

ugly

Buy the pink ones!

Sorce

 

[Gregory DeNinno]

Buy the pink ones!

Sorce

I bought a whole bunch of pink ones at the Dollar Store last week. My girly trees don't seem to mind

 

[Waltron]

I'm pretty much in the same place as you with my trees Matt. however, im not so worried about their health transferring them over to bonsai pots, and I dont think you should be so worried either. Larch and deciduous are hardy strong growers and will be able to handle it, and from what I read about the white cedar it should be fine as well. I do get what you mean with the pines though, (and beech). I think you have the awareness and experience to know what is too much root reduction. Also, they dont have to go from the box to the finished bonsai pot so fast.. why rush it? you might want to step down into something that is showable but not quite the finished shallow piece until another year or so.

 

[Wilson]

You can always go with the fold over technique if you feel like you need to keep some longer roots. I do like to put trees in smaller, more manageable containers. Either way I am sure you will transplant them and they will be all good.

 

[Giga]

How long have the tree's been in the training flats and what species are they? - this is important

Also you need to understand the difference that the tree root system is in, granted that you planted them in bonsai soil in these boxes. When you take them out of the ground ,where you collected them, they have long tap roots and not many fine feeder root close to the trunk. When you re-pot them in a bonsai pot you should have a ton of fine roots and you can cut them back, and as long as you keep a bunch of fine roots ,when they will go in the pot you should be fine. Make sense?

 

[Adair M]

The California guys tend to build custom boxes (or customize regular boxes) so that the original collected roots will support the tree. Almost all of them use straight pumice as soil.

After a couple years, then real root work begins. Depending upon The amount of new feeder roots close to the trunk, the old root system can be cut back. Some of The old soil can be removed. And replaced with more pumice. Usually, it goes back into a new, smaller, custom box using pumice for a couple years.

The number of partial reductions is dependent upon how much new rooting you get and how much reduction is necessary.

It's better to go slow and be safe than rush it.

 

[Waltron]

I dont think matt messes with too many fussy junipers like the cali folk. A larch in a grow box for 2 seasons will be prime and ready for heavy root reduction within reason, and from what I've read, white cedar as well.

 

[sorce]

After a year outside these ain't so pretty...

But fresh...

Sexy as hell.
That one is for my time- capsuled Amur.

Maybe @Leo in N E Illinois or @Brian Van Fleet could tell us how much a slab of concrete 1in× 18in×12in is....

My scientific calcution for the new home of my big ficus is....

Fucking heavy.

But my ficus will be happy.

There is a Bonsai Art of Japan where @Owen Reich is awling a pine rootpad.
That is my measure of when something is ready for a proper pot.
When there is no question of root health and vigor.

For me, that path is via colanders and 8822.

Sorce

 

[mattspinniken]

A little more info: All of my trees go into a mix of pumice, turface, perlite, and about 5% compost. My collected species are mostly Larch and White Cedar with an occasional Landscape Yardadori. I don't need to keep much of the field soil but I do keep a little (alot more for the few Pine I have collected). I don't touch the roots after collecting for a minimum of 2 growing seasons but some of my trees have been waiting and still don't seem ready after 4 seasons. I actually havent lost any trees from transplanting into a bonsai pot yet I am just wondering if there is a better way and I am hoping to avoid problems in the future.

Usually, it goes back into a new, smaller, custom box using pumice for a couple years

I am thinking I will need to do this but only on the ones that I wish had gone into a smaller box in the first place (Junipers are more sensitive though).

I guess my question would be, do people think it is beneficial to use an big box for collected stuff? Or use the smallest container that the collected roots will fit in? Maybe even surrounding the small container with mulch when first collected. I have noticed actually less vigor on my collected trees that were put in really big deep boxes than the ones that almost didnt fit.

 

[mattspinniken]

white cedar as well

maybe Im just lucky but I all the White Cedar I have collected come out with a really nice fine dense root system. I am not worried about the transfer of those. Mostly I am concerned about the older Larch that I have that need some serious root work.

 

[mattspinniken]

you might want to step down into something that is showable but not quite the finished shallow piece until another year or so.

Good point, I may do this with 1 or 2 to show them in the local bonsai club show and then make it a goal to get it in a better shallower pot for a bigger show down the road.

 

[wireme]

I have been collecting trees and putting them into wooden boxes for the last 3 or 4 years. My survival rate has been very good overall and trees are healthy. I am starting to look for pots for a number of my trees and I am worried that the process of going from wooden box to small container will be like a second collection for them and they will suffer from it.

When I first started collecting my theory was bigger training boxes are better. Now I am starting to think that the smallest possible pot or box is best right after collection as long as I don't need to trim many roots at all during collection. I am not collecting things that need to be "grown out". I am just looking for vigor. Maybe a small pot but mulched into a bigger box for the first year? Any thoughts?

I agree with your current thinking, I've always kept the first box or pot as small as possible, most people say it's best for survival anyways. I also often use baffles, rocks, whatever to take up space within a box rather than fill it corner to corner with substrate. That way you can save some of the long awkward roots that you may not want to prune initially but still keep the soil volume low if you know what I mean.

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, concerning collected conifers in general, there's really no difference between reducing a large root ball and reducing the canopy. Get the collected tree healthy and growing strongly, then make subsequent reductions over several years and place into smaller pots as the reduced root system will allow. Ideally, the original container/box post collection would be made custom for the tree and fit the roots rather snugly. With the few collected junipers I've worked, they've never gone from original collection box/container and into a bonsai pot at the first go. It's always been from wooden box to oversized mica pot or nursery can and then into a ceramic container. I suspect that larch and arborvitae, when healthy, are very forgiving when it comes to root reduction, so you may be able to get it done in one go.

 

[Waltron]

The size and type of the container upon collection does matter immensely from what I've found. Depending on what you are trying to accomplish and the condition the roots are in. too big will cause problems, too small, too deep, or too shallow, or even pond baskets and colanders will all cause problems in certain situations. I've found this out the hard way, luckily avoiding fatalities, but not set backs. I used to just get them into whatever I had that would fit. now Each individual plant needs unique considerations after its out of the ground, so there's no real hard and fast rules.. decisions the collector must make based off experience, I dont even mix soil until I have the roots washed anymore either. but also realize, my methods are going to be different than anyone else's, just as yours will be.

 

[mattspinniken]

my methods

Just curious what do you use generally? I have made a bunch of different sized boxes and if I have a tree I know im going to collect I try and make sure I have a box that I guess it will be in with tie downs and screens for drains already installed. I like to get the tree potted as soon as possible.

Sometimes the unfortunte happens and a trees roots wont properly fit in the box to display the front. This White Cedar is one that will need some root work (obviously) to cut down on the front to back size of the box/pot.

 

[yenling83]

Hey Matt,

Here's my suggestions for you:

-The number one consideration is always the trees health. Take your time and don't rush the tree along if your unsure.
-Ditch the turface, compost and even the perlite. Just use 100% pumice.
-Fertilize heavily with 100% organic -Fish Emulsion approx every two weeks Spring-Fall
-Don't go by a certain number of years, wait until you can see signs of strength before you work on the tree. This means runners, or lots of tip growth.
-If you use a colander-which I personally don't and would not recommend. Make sure it's larger than a pot you would use, you will have to water a lot more frequently especially if you use 100% pumice as this is a mix that dries out quickly.
-Custom box is better, fit the root ball.
-Use the 1/2 bare root technique, when you are ready to repot again. don't do this before the tree is really healthy.
-Your tree does not have to go straight from a wooden box to the final Bonsai pot(this can take several re-pottings to accomplish).
-You could just take one panel off the wooden box, bare root that side and replace with new Bonsai soil.
-I will generally style the tree in the box once, before I re-pot. However, you want alot of time in between when you style and repot. So say I style it in early summer 2016, then re-pot in early spring of 2017.
-If you have any specific questions let me know i'll do my best to respond.


Here's some pics for you on a tree I recently re potted.
Timeline on this tree was:
2013-Collected
2016-Styled in Summer(I did not do anything in the time between 13-16)
2017-Early Spring/late winter(my climate allows for this, for many wait until just before bud swell)
2017-More Styling
2018-More Styling and possibly repot into bonsai pot

Here's why I recommend pure pumice. If you remove one of the sides of your box, you hope to see roots like this.

I cut off about 1/2 the roots. Notice near the trunk, I've combed out the root ball and removed all mountain soil. I will continue combing out the whole front half and the back i'll leave mostly untouched. Next step is to put inside a smaller grow box.

 

[Waltron]

well first of all that tree is badass. you have a great eye for identifying great material. that is one that id like dibs on if you ever decide to get rid of it. second, yes I agree it is important to get the tree potted as soon as possible, I try to do that as well, having viable container options ready to go is key. I also think that custom boxes are great, probably ideal. I suffer from the problem of not loving the look and maneuverability of the container's I end up choosing, and one knock on the boxes is that they are so damn bulky and heavy. at the end of the day, it is what it is, as you well know,the recovery stage of collecting is not about showing off trees, its about healing and horticulture, to sacrifice those things for aesthetic reasons, or even for research and experimenting, would be selfish and illogical.

I have a wide variety of containers I keep, nursery cans, pond baskets, colanders, pre made boxes, custom box making materials ceramic pots, and felt grow bags of various sizes, as well as 3 garden beds and counting. I actually think that grow bags are overlooked in bonsai, and they can provide an awesome home for a recovering plant. They do have drawbacks, but I think when used properly the benefits outweigh them. you can fold them over to make shallower, and unfold them and cover the substrate and trunk for winter storage if need be. I could go on about grow bags vs colanders, but I doubt anyone cares. The main drawback people worry about, is the roots being disturbed if they are moved, which is warranted. however, a key part of recovery is not moving the plant for a while after its watered in for the first time. After a few waterings and once the roots take, the grow bags actually hold their shape pretty well and can be moved, carefully.

as ive mentioned before, you and I are in very similar situations in our bonsai journey. you are doing it right, and some of your concerns mirror mine. I think your process is just fine. I am not worried about getting my trees into actual bonsai pots just yet, but I am starting to scout and collect actual bonsai pots for the future as I can tell which trees will eventually be deserving of them. Right now I think those chinese cheap mica pots which come in various sizes and shapes is what ill be shooting for transferring my new collects into, knowing that they will likely be temporary in the scheme of things.

The biggest and most common problem with selecting the proper container size seems to stem from the large heavy roots. Those are what dictate the type and size of container, and should be carefully considered and contemplated before potting. for many many reasons. Obviously the species will dictate how aggressively those can worked upon initial collection. I try to take as big a rootball as possible and get it back to my work station. after hosing off as much soil as possible without disturbing the fine roots, the heavy roots need to be figured out how much of the fines are coming off the heavy ones. It really comes down to your willingness to remove those heavy guys at time of collection, because it is ideal to get the plant in as small a container as possible, leaving some room to grow, but not too much. whether it be underneath, or laterally.