Feeling like I am not progressing

[Vin]

You picked your Forum Name for a reason I suspect: "A paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true. Most logical paradoxes are known to be invalid arguments but are still valuable in promoting critical thinking".

 

[mcpesq817]

I agree with Dav4. I think the key is not necessarily to get more trees or see more trees, but to get good trees and see/spend time with great trees.

I rarely go to club meetings anymore because there are a lot of members that have been doing bonsai for much longer than I have that are still working on $10 stock they got from Home Depot - and they bring those trees into workshops and add $20 of wire to boot These people seem to be stuck in a rut and don't really advance.

Where I feel like I've learned a ton and regained inspiration was taking workshops with talented, enthusiastic people - Ryan Neil, Boon, Steve Tolley, etc. Also, being around great trees will get you motivated again. I'm fortunate enough to live near the National Arboretum and a couple hours drive from Nature's Way. Seeing those collections will really bring home what bonsai is. I really wish I could get up to the National Exhibition, but it's a really long hike for me and with family responsibilities, I just can't swing it at this time.

As an aside, and I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I didn't understand the box store challenge. I think such things in the end are very counterproductive for forums, as the more experienced members will not want to waste their time on here when we really should be encouraging them to post their better material. Plus, how are you really going to judge a hacked up a 6" juniper from Home Depot? If you've been doing bonsai for greater than a year, how much inspiration are you going to get from material like that? Better to save some money and buy the best stock you can afford, and then work on it with a professional. That in the end will make the hobby much more fulfilling.

 

[coh]

Took the words right out of my mouth. Styling is very hard for me too. I think that it will somewhat come with time and experience. I try to work on trees as much as I can but still not go crazy or overboard and have more trees than is reasonable. Would more trees change that? or would I just be spinning my wheels making the same styling/wiring mistakes or things of that nature.

Thats kind of why I feel a teacher would be able to give feedback, instruction and help eliminate doubts I may have in my abilities. I also recall a thread a while back about "Do you need a teacher" and if I'm not mistaken it seems the best trees I see are more often than not from someone who has worked with professionals to some degree. I'm not saying you can't improve without out a teacher as self taught folks have made great trees, it just seems like a logical step in the scheme of things. As for me, I'd love to work with Ryan Neil and attend his three sessions over the course of a year.

Kathy Shaner is doing a demo in November I believe here on Long Island. Paradox, you should attend if she's not doing your club as well. Her demos are top notch.

Demos are fine, but I'm coming to believe they will only take one so far. One of the benefits of living in the frozen wasteland of Rochester is that I've seen lots of demos in the past 4 years - the list would be like a "who's who" in the bonsai world. But I still draw a blank in front of raw material much of the time. I know more technical things now, like how to use rebar to achieve a large bend, for example - but when to use it is the problem.

I've also observed a number of workshops and have come to realize that some teachers are much better than others in that setting. I was particularly impressed with the workshop done by Hiroyoshi Yamaji after the recent National Exhibition, and kind of wish I'd signed up to participate instead of just observe. Same thing with Kathy. I'd jump at the chance to participate in a workshop with either of them.

But the workshop setting doesn't always "work". As I noted above, it depends a lot on the instructor and how well they manage a complex situation with different students at different levels of ability, widely differing trees, often too many students (my opinion) to really devote the time to work with someone as opposed to just doing the styling in front of them. In the future I think I'm going to try to work more one-on-one with someone. It will cost more but I think it will be more effective in the long run.

Chris

 

[Paradox]

You picked your Forum Name for a reason I suspect: "A paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true. Most logical paradoxes are known to be invalid arguments but are still valuable in promoting critical thinking".

Haha. It comes from my video gaming life. I didnt know what name to use when I signed up here so I used the old standby. However I do think sometimes it is a reflection of my personality and who I am. I admit that I am a bit odd, but Ive learned to live with it.

 

[fourteener]

As an aside, and I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I didn't understand the box store challenge. I think such things in the end are very counterproductive for forums, as the more experienced members will not want to waste their time on here when we really should be encouraging them to post their better material. .

I find good yamadori and make something great from something great. Now I have a tree that's gonna take 20 years to be better than the stuff I will gather next spring. I forgot myself, moved away from what inspired me. Live and learn!!

 

[Vin]

As an aside, and I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I didn't understand the box store challenge. I think such things in the end are very counterproductive for forums, as the more experienced members will not want to waste their time on here when we really should be encouraging them to post their better material.

No heat but even a Grand Theft Auto aficionado enjoys playing a round of Pac Man every once in a while. For me, the moment bonsai is no longer fun and enjoyable is when you'll see all my trees and tools for sale on some auction website. I would also add that if a man with 50 years experience is willing to judge such a challenge and call it fun then there must be some validity to everyone's work? Not arguing, just my opinion.

 

[fourteener]

Several things going on in my mind.

1. Growth isn't a constant 45 degree angle upward forever.

2. 3 years ago I was a little burned out on all of this. For me the issues was too many average plants. At this point in my life I continue to gather stuff, but I am on a steady diet of getting rid of ten trees and replacing it with one that's good enough to be in the top 10% of my collection. Inspiration

3. "The eye never has enough of seeing, the hear never has enough of hearing." That's said as a negative. I'll be honest, I like my time away from Bonsai. I am 30 days away from having all my trees tucked in their winter home. I'll do a few things over the winter but 6 months away gives me time to think about other things. I know enough to know that I do things in seasons. This winter I will remodel our Master Bedroom. I'm looking forward to it! After your trees shut down, wait until mid-January to start thinking about it again(if that helps)

4. Other parts of the hobby can provide alternatives to learning. I'm more into pots than ever. This winter I am gong to build one or two stands. There are a lot of facets to all of this, enjoy a new one!

5. Any recommended reads concerning Japanese aesthetics as it relates to Bonsai culture/Japanese culture? I need a good book or articles about that. Sometimes learning has to do with discovering something you'd like to know more about. Something interesting enough to you to do some research and track it down.

6. Challenge yourself. You don't know what you don't know until you try something beyond what you know! I've had fun doing a couple of shows these past couple of years. I found out I didn't know enough. It's been fun to figure it out.

All that being said, it's not abnormal for me to be done with these trees this time of year and about late February for me to wish I lived in a warmer climate. I don't fight it anymore or wonder if anything is wrong with me...other than the obvious things that are wrong with me!!

 

[M. Frary]

One of the things I've learning or doing different hobbies like TKD or learning guitar or bass fishing is that you reach plateaus of learning. You stay on a plateau for a while then all of a sudden you can do something you couldn't do the week before. I believe it's that same in bonsai. You get to a certain level and stay there for a while stagnating. It's part of the patience thing. Just hang in there and I bet in a while you will look at a tree and just know what to do with it.

 

[Wee]

Well the "BSC" may not have been everyone's cup of tea but for me it was great.....Up until Vin came up with the idea I had only hacked a couple of branches off a tree and added a wire or two because I had ZERO confidence that I could even come close to styling a tree to look like much of anything. Some probably still felt that way after seeing my entry but the important thing was I no longer felt this way. I'm doing bonsai for my enjoyment at this point and nothing else.

Let's not forget Bonsai is an art form that takes an artistic talent that can't necessarily be taught, some just have it and some don't. The technical aspects can be learned but knowing what to do with raw stock I'm not so sure about....? I have been watching tons of demos on youtube since the "BSC" started and I really like the way Ryan does his....I'm still amazed at the ends results with each additional one I watch.

I guess for me my next step is to learn the basics and hope I can figure out how to "make the tree the best it can be every time I touch it..." as I have heard Ryan say many times during his demos.

Brian

 

[Poink88]

Paradox,

I agree with Sawgrass, you have to work on trees to apply what you are learning to elevate to the next level...especially the art part of it. It will come but may take some time. Practice makes perfect. This is one major reason why I have so many trees--to have lots of practice in a short time. Try it, it works.

Like you, I learn (the technical aspect) just by looking, reading, or observing but the ART part is elusive. Sawgrass is an artist (that is his gift) so some of us will never be as good even if we try really hard. That is fine, know the limits of your capabilities and accept it (and be happy). We can't all be Van Gogh.

Start looking at trees/bonsai you admire...then FOCUS on the DETAILS. A slight curve at the right place may be the only thing that sets it apart from 100s or 1000s of trees out there. Find WHAT makes them special then you will know which to replicate.

Likewise, look at "bad" bonsai and find what makes it bad (again focus on the details)...so you may avoid that mistake. Be a critique, redesign it (even just in your mind), it is not easy but you will learn a lot from it.

There are practice afforded to you only by advanced materials but most can be done on mediocre materials as well. I do not discriminate between plants, I just do as I feel is necessary. Of course there were times I later learned that what I did was wrong. No regrets, lesson still learned.

Bad is bad, wrong is wrong. Correct mistakes ASAP. The sooner you do, the faster you will set your tree to the right path. It may set you back and recovery will very likely take time but that is fine. Otherwise, you will keep regretting your in-action (likely forever).

Learn to let go. For example, a badly located branch, no matter how nicely tapered and ramified, may be a liability. If it is, chop it off! Some mistakes cannot be returned or corrected (or not as easily) so make sure before committing to those type of actions.

Learn everything you can to manipulate the tree. Wiring, bending, grafting, carving, etc. It is nice to have that freedom to create and not be limited by what the tree gives you.

Set a goal, create a good plan and implement. Change it if you must (and you will) but only to improve...not for convenience.

Good luck!

 

[Wee]

Welcome back Dario...

 

[A Random User]

I guess from now on I am going to only post finished polished
Trees that I spent thousands of dollars on, for everyone to ooh
And awe over, kinda like they do over at IBC...

For some strange reason I was under the impression that
People wanted to see the work being done on actual trees.
Work, that I personally did...not had done for me...

See, for me, I like posting trees that I am proud of the work
I have done on them... makes no difference if the tree is crap.
Never has... because I am not here to show finished trees, I am here to
Show what I am doing in the hopes that others might see that
They to can do it.

I may of not won the box store challenge, but I did produce a
Tree that only needed to be put in a pot to display in a show.
To me... that is a real test of a true artist.

 

[coh]

The idea of the box store challenge was a good one - to get people to think about a (probably lousy) piece of raw material and transform it into "something". Try things that you wouldn't necessarily try on a more expensive piece of stock. And looking at the entries, it seemed to accomplish exactly that. I think anyone who went into it expecting/hoping to win, or who was disappointed that they didn't win, was missing the point.

And really, if you look at some of the transformations that take place in demos - it's a lot like that. Master comes in and takes an unruly piece of material (usually) and prunes/wires/bends it into something that looks like "bonsai". Ever seen some of the transformations that Pavel (can't recall his last name) accomplishes? Starts off with something that I'd probably walk past as "hopeless" or too complicated, and when he's done it looks amazing - and you think, why didn't I see that potential? Or, when will I start seeing that potential?

Like with other forms of art, I think there are some cases where you can attribute that ability to some kind of innate "talent" (some people just see/think differently than most of us), but more often it's just that the person has worked hard and gone through the process over and over again. Usually with a teacher, which will lessen the time required, but sometimes on their own. How many pieces of world class material do you think Ryan Neil worked on during his apprenticeship? No wonder he can do what he does.

Chris

 

[sorce]

This odd year has me feeling the same way. Spring never came.
Summer...nope. Now its winter again.

What happened to all the new stuff I wanted to try?

I think its good, because I actually let stuff go and grow.

The BSC helped me get some creativity out. It helped me leave other stuff alone!

Im learning patience.

I love to see works in progress.

Keep posting everything!

Sorce

 

[jk_lewis]

Spending $3000+ three times a year to get to a Boon's intensive or Ryan Neil's classes is not something I can do

Aw, fer Pete's sake. Did I ever say that? NO! I won't cost near that to go ONCE a year to any of Bill's shows for a day -- unless you go to VERY expensive hotels. I didn't cost near that for me to go to two of Bill's events from down here in North Carolina.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I just get the feeling that you just don't really, really want to do it.

 

[A Random User]

Thanks Dario and welcome back !!!
You are more than kind, I am no great artist, just doing what
Everyone else is doing ! Creating bonsai

You are right about putting the time in...
When one listens to folks like Ryan Neil talk in interviews,
You will here him say that he wired trees as an apprentice
For 16 to 18 hours a day, everyday.
Practice, practice, practice !!!
Can't expect to get good at anything if you don't
Actually do what you are trying to get good at

 

[Paradox]

I guess from now on I am going to only post finished polished
Trees that I spent thousands of dollars on, for everyone to ooh
And awe over, kinda like they do over at IBC...

Youre being sarcastic here right?
Because....

For some strange reason I was under the impression that
People wanted to see the work being done on actual trees.

This is what some of us around here have been lamenting lately.
We want to see more of this by people further along than we are to so we can learn to see what they do in a tree.

 

[Paradox]

Aw, fer Pete's sake. Did I ever say that? NO! I won't cost near that to go ONCE a year to any of Bill's shows for a day -- unless you go to VERY expensive hotels. I didn't cost near that for me to go to two of Bill's events from down here in North Carolina.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I just get the feeling that you just don't really, really want to do it.

Do you have a copy of Bill's personal schedule or anyone else for that matter to know where they will be and when? I sure dont.
What events were these? I club event or a larger show of some kind? I dont keep track of all the bonsai shows held everywhere to know who is where and when.

I know about the National show upstate in September, just haven been able to get there yet. Will try for next year.
I also know about the Mid-Atlantic show in NJ/PA every spring. Went there this year, will go again next year.

So I do see demos/workshops a few times a year. Guess Im wondering what else I could be doing.

 

[Vin]

I'd like to think even John Naka's garden wasn't filled with Goshins... I know someone who has a tree initially styled by Mr. Naka years and years ago. It's not a Masterpiece but it's a pretty damn nice tree. Every tree starts from the basics. Didn't someone say on here once "you don't grow bonsai, you grow trees and style them as bonsai" or something like that?

 

[johng]

one possible solution - The Study Group

Get together with a small group (5-6 seems to work well) of folks in your area on a regular basis. The main purpose is to work on trees with the added insight and skills of the other members. When your group is ready, invite a teacher to come spend a day... If you have a group of 5-6 it will typically cost somewhere between $100-150 per person plus travel...very affordable for a full day of instruction. To save on travel...Talk to your expert, see if they are going to be in your area and coordinate your visit and that should save you plenty on travel. Spend the money you save on better material

My group brings in Kathy Shaner every March between her visits to Atlanta and New York....its the most productive money I spend on learning and we save 90% on travel.

Depending on your learning style, I would also recommend to sign up for workshops as an observer...you can follow the instructor and learn as he or she visits each participant. Besides, most of the time workshop material is less than desirable and you spend time working on your tree and missing what is being taught to others... Of course if the material is good than take the workshop because there is no substitute for hands on experience. TAKE NOTES and refer back to them! I never take notes and have forgotten more tidbits than I care to think about.

John