bonsaichile
Omono
I did, as soon as someone pointed out my mistake
Do established bonsai guidelines stifle creativity?
- Thread starter Silentrunning
- Start date
brewmeister83
Chumono
You do realize that there is a classification of bonsai-with-rock plantings in Japan, right? Look up Saikei - they have a whole set of rules all their own if you want to add a rock to the "scene" of the pot. And yeah, from the little I know of it, a chunky rock that isolated and far from the trunk just sitting on the surface doesn't harmonize well with the tree. So, you could show it as Saikei, not bonsai, but it still wouldn't rank high because it breaks too many visual guidelines. Just my 2 cents - in the end, you do you.
Nice Larch BTW, like the taper/flare at the base
I love the conifer, and I hate the quince. The trouble with the quince is the angle of the branches. Particularly the lower 4 or 5. As you can clearly see, there is nowhere left to go with them except backwards. They cannot go up because there is something above them and they cannot go out because they have reached their outer limit. In the process it inevitably becomes more and more artificial looking. It's a good example of training a tree according with tradition and losing your way in the process. If you angle deciduous branches at closer to 45 degrees, you can continue the ramification forever because you can always create space, you will eventually have better taper because you can go back and select a new leader. This continues to be a huge problem even with people starting out today. They bring the branch into the horizontal and seal the trees fate then and there.
Gene Deci
Shohin
I'm not sure one small rock a Saikei makes. In any case that is not my point. If some small departure from tradition, when you know better, offends a judge then perhaps creativity is stifled.
Not exactly. What you have done is a bit like entering a cat in a dog show.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Agreed. If you decide to enter in a judicated show you have to accept one of two possible approaches. You prepare you entry according to the established rules for the show or you do things your way. The outcome may or may not predictable but I can pretty much guarantee that the winner wont be the the iconoclastic adventurer who holds convention and tradition in disdain.
At the last Winter Silohette Show in December, there were about 3 dozen entries from exhibitors from all over east of the Mississippi. Two or three of the exhibits were experimental. One had a windswept tree, and the accents were stuff that might get washed on shore from a storm, and there was a sign: “Go away IRMA”, in reference to the hurricane.
Another used an intricate box made of dowels as a stand, and there was metal gears, and an old time calculator, and a background of a list of name. (I think).
Anyway, Bill Valavanis was the judge. Anyone who knows anything about Bill knows he’s very Japanese traditional. He gave a critique of all the entries in the show. Except those two. Walked right past them.
Now, dont misunderstand, there was a very original display of a persimmon tree. (My memory is poor - I THINK it was persimmon!) anyway, the scroll used showed a persimmon in bloom. The stand was made of persimmon wood. The display was very original, but different. I’m pretty sure it won one of the awards.
And another display of a volcano?
I don’t have a pic of the “Irma” display, sorry.
I think it’s supposed to be a time machine?
Note the leaves as cutouts on the stand.
The volcano.
Gene Deci
Shohin
Would you accept entering a dog in a cat show. I don't really like cats very much.
Gene Deci
Shohin
Right on, Vance. I'm fine with that. But the original poster asked if the rules stifle creativity. I'm not sure how you identify creativity, so I don't know how you can answer that question definitively. I'm just suggesting it might.
The rock is a distraction. It appears out of place. As if someone left it there, and forgot about it.
There is a place for accents in bonsai display. They are there to help the eye move around the display, but ultimately return the focus back to the tree.
Go back and look at the display of the quince. The lowest, longest branch on the tree is the key branch, and it’s on the right. The accent Plant is also on the right. It’s on a little jita that’s the same color as the primary stand, but a different shape. The accent plant has movement. It appears to be pointing left, back towards the tree. Even the red spot is on the left, moving your eye back towards the tree. The placement of the accent is a continuation of the line made by the canopy on the right side of the tree. Thus, an unequal sided triangle is formed. Triangles show movement, which is generally more interesting to look at than squares and rectangles.
Now, look at your tree. The rock is on the right. But your key branch is on the left. Your tree has a very strong movement straight up! But the rock has a rectangular form, and sits horizontal on the pot. If it were a tall rock, it would help the eye start to move up along with the tree. Instead, it fights against it. You even have the tree potted on the wrong side of the pot. The key branch should have most of of the soil under it. The low branches on the right appear to have more foliage mass than the key branch. Again, this makes the tree look unbalanced. And, the pot: when you have a tall tree like that, it needs to show that it’s firmly attached to the earth. You pot has legs that lift the pot off the ground, putting air under it. I think the tree would look much better in a pot that sat more directly on the stand. Maybe a round drum pot would work better.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Many technicians, few artists. Some self proclaimed gurus this site emulate the former more than latter
.
brewmeister83
Chumono
Gene Deci
Shohin
To most of us Saikei implies a landscape. Don't the pictures you have posted confirm that?
Gene Deci
Shohin
You make my point exactly. I usually understand the reasons for the rules and I understand the ones you site. But the bottom line is this. If I didn't like that tree better with that rock in that corner I wouldn't have left it there. That may just be a function of being tired of how I have always had it, but I like it. That is why I asked the question which no one has addressed - Should I just not show a tree that willfully "breaks the rules". Most of my trees do. The majority of people who attend bonsai shows, who know nothing of bonsai rules, like trees that the experts do not. Is that a consideration at all?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
There are several subjects that have come under discussion here, this was just one of them. If you read the entire thread you may get an idea where I am coming from. Short story was about the rules stiffiling creativity. Answer: In the beginning no, the rules help guide the beginner through the beginning. In the end Yes. The rules can and are used by those with authority or valued opinion to beat down anything that is contrary to their opinion. Often in out quest to do better we put up walls that actually hinder that goal.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
If the tree moves you - memory - experience - idea.........
That is all that matters.
Or the original reason for growing trees -
You like what you saw.
Or what was discovered - as you work with trees ------ ideas come for
poetry, painting, prose and sculpture.
An exhibition used to be just that, showing trees.
The medal bit is petty.
Good Day
Anthony
Scrolls and decoration are akin to a comment made on an art list.
Paintings are not wall decoration.
Bonsai are not room decoration, and the tree carries all of the message.
That is all that matters.
Or the original reason for growing trees -
You like what you saw.
Or what was discovered - as you work with trees ------ ideas come for
poetry, painting, prose and sculpture.
An exhibition used to be just that, showing trees.
The medal bit is petty.
Good Day
Anthony
Scrolls and decoration are akin to a comment made on an art list.
Paintings are not wall decoration.
Bonsai are not room decoration, and the tree carries all of the message.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Just goes to show; Opiniions are like noses, every body has one and they all smell. Anthony; this is only your opinion and falls into the same catagory on the other side from those who live and die by the judged show. Whose right??? Yes and No.
There’s no accounting for taste!
At the Carolina Expo Show, there’s a People’s Choice award. Often a tree that has a club house tree house in the branches, or an outhouse building or something like that will win the People’s Choice. Not always, but it happens. But the reason a display like that wins is because of the clubhouse in the tree. NOT because of the tree. The tree might be spectacular, deserving of an award, but because of the clubhouse, it’s the clubhouse that gets the attention.
Lots of time the general public doesn’t know what they’re looking at.
And sometimes they may choose something that’s “different” than the others, thinking that it’s creative, when it’s just poorly done.
A related example to that was when we bought some chicks at the feed store to raise for eggs. We like to have a mixed flock. At the feed store, they separate the varieties. And they sell most of them “sexed”. That is, all the birds in one bin will be females. Other bins might contain a “straight run” which will have both sexes. We don’t want roosters, so we avoid those. Anyway, we let my 10 year old pick the chicks from the bins containing females. He usually would pick the biggest and healthiest. One he picked had a spot on its head. He picked it because “it was different”. It turn out to be a rooster!
I would not brag about a tree that the experts don’t like.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Actually, Vance,
if you read about Chinese Scholars, it is actually historical.
Not an opinion.
In fact in the, "Poetry and Prose of the Ming and Qing"
A scholar writes about the atrocious way trees were treated.
That he would go to the market, buy the wired plants.
Take them to his estate and un-wire, plant them back on
his land to have a normal life.
It pays to read Chinese literature and history for a clearer idea.
Good Day
Anthony
if you read about Chinese Scholars, it is actually historical.
Not an opinion.
In fact in the, "Poetry and Prose of the Ming and Qing"
A scholar writes about the atrocious way trees were treated.
That he would go to the market, buy the wired plants.
Take them to his estate and un-wire, plant them back on
his land to have a normal life.
It pays to read Chinese literature and history for a clearer idea.
Good Day
Anthony
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
That my be so but the philosopher's resources, options and his subsequent actions do not justify any thing he has done as truth. They are after all an opinion; his and obviously contrary to many who have taken the time and effort to make these trees look the way they do. So-----whose right?
Similar threads
