Do established bonsai guidelines stifle creativity?

[Silentrunning]

It is interesting that in this thread people refer to Picasso. In addition to being one of the most prolific artists of all time, Picasso was constantly reinventing himself as an artist. Look at his earlier work and it bears zero resemblance of his work in his middle or later stages. He was always challenging the "rules", and whenever his rules became acceptable or mainstream - he would break the rules again.

I think there is plenty of leeway for creativity in bonsai - as long as someone knows how and why they are breaking the rules. Take for example this tree, which I really enjoy:

View attachment 197916

The artist created this redwood bonsai from a rotting trunk of a much larger tree. He took the deadwood of the trunk to suggest a stone cliff-side, while running the live vein of the tree to make the composition look like a root-over-rock.

It is certainly an unusual composition that falls outside of the "accepted" rules of bonsai and does not fit a category. However I would say that it obeys more rules than it breaks, and ultimately it is successful at suggesting a live tree in nature in a small form. This tree tends to be very polarizing at shows - people either love it or hate it.

Thanks BN. You gave a perfect visual representation to my poorly worded question. I came up with the question while studying the literati form. I thought - what if no predecessor had ever thought of literati? What if no one had seen a tall skinny tree struggling to survive against the elements? I was mainly wondering if someone brought a tree like you pictured to a show, what would be the reaction?

 

[WNC Bonsai]

It is interesting that in this thread people refer to Picasso. In addition to being one of the most prolific artists of all time, Picasso was constantly reinventing himself as an artist. Look at his earlier work and it bears zero resemblance of his work in his middle or later stages. He was always challenging the "rules", and whenever his rules became acceptable or mainstream - he would break the rules again.

I think there is plenty of leeway for creativity in bonsai - as long as someone knows how and why they are breaking the rules. Take for example this tree, which I really enjoy:

View attachment 197916

The artist created this redwood bonsai from a rotting trunk of a much larger tree. He took the deadwood of the trunk to suggest a stone cliff-side, while running the live vein of the tree to make the composition look like a root-over-rock.

It is certainly an unusual composition that falls outside of the "accepted" rules of bonsai and does not fit a category. However I would say that it obeys more rules than it breaks, and ultimately it is successful at suggesting a live tree in nature in a small form. This tree tends to be very polarizing at shows - people either love it or hate it.

Yes! Tnis is a prime example of how you can use the rules to create a more or less traditional subject in an unusual setting to “ultimately be successful at suggesting a live tree in nature”. Probably the most common form of this type approach is “traditional” trees in non-traditional pots. In order to create something believable you still have to master the basics. Just do a Google search for early Picasso paintings and you will see that he did just that.

 

[parhamr]

> open this thread
> see it’s 4 pages
> shitpost and leave

 

[Vance Wood]

Many times I have seen beginners stumble over the "established rules" in trying to make a bonsai by the book. They become so busy doing the rules that they forget two things: The rules were established through examining the results and forms of beautiful bonsai, and two: The rules should be used to discover why a tree does not work artistically, not make a good tree ugly so that it follows the rules. Just remember this one historic fact. J.S. Bach in his day broke all of the rules of music by writing new rules of music. His iconoclasty gave us the rules of music we follow to this day, it gave us the well tempered scale and made the modal scales obsolete.

 

[Silentrunning]

> open this thread
> see it’s 4 pages
> shitpost and leave

Very helpful. Thanks for your astute input.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I'm a big fan of the rules.

In my intuition I find myself,
In myself I find freedom;
In nature I find the rule,
In the rule I find the wisdom.

 

[Adair M]

There is “literati”, and then there is “yamadori”.

Yamadori style trees often won’t fit into the traditional categories. Often they have a striking element such as ribbon deadwood, or twists or burls that are unusual and amazing. The rest of the tree, the foliage, is arranged to “frame” this feature and show it off to its best advantage.

And there are man made versions of the “yamadori style”. I’m thinking of the “corkscrew” junipers that are grown with whips bent into corkscrew shapes, knowing that they will eventually get jinned.

Literati are a different character. These again often don’t fit into other classifications. But they always should appear old. A young looking literati doesn’t work. The tree should be minimalistic. Bare bones. Not lush. It should appear to have withstood many hardships, taken some damage, and persevered. It should appear that it had seen good times, and bad, and it could tell many stories of its experiences.

Well, there ya go! I just listed a whole bunch of “rules” for a style that’s supposed to break all the rules! Lol!!!

 

[MichaelS]

The only thing that stifles creativity is yourself. And you do that by trying to emulate what has gone before.

 

[Silentrunning]

The only thing that stifles creativity is yourself. And you do that by trying to emulate what has gone before.

About the time I think I have a handle on this, you come along with that statement and confuse my thinking all over again.

 

[Vance Wood]

Learn how to picture the tree in nature as a bonsai in a pot and proceed to style your tree as though you were nature interacting with the tree before you. In the end when things don't look right go back to "The Rules" and see what rules you have violated and fix that which is not working. Look for the bar branches, look for the branches at the inside of curves, look for things poking you in the eye, look for open spaces that have nothing in them, and look for things that don't seem to fit. If it looks right to you then what do you care if some academic rule oriented doodie head doesn't like your tree because it does not follow some of his/her favorite rules. Take not of what they say, (they are not always wrong but sometimes they are), as an offense but look at it and see if they are right.

 

[wireme]

I'm always surprised when people are proud they haven't been out of their backyard to see other bonsaiists, join a club, attend a show, or make a trip to regional collections. Such trips can be life changing, or at least

I recently (seemed pertinent to the thread at the time) mentioned that I’m in that group of people. I have very briefly visited a couple great collections once, otherwise virtually no personal exposure. Not so much proud of bonsai hermitage, if anything it’s slightly embarrassing. I am proud of what I’ve accomplished so far though. I agree with you that it’s a disadvantage so a bit of pride in solo accomplishments is not unreasonable is it?

 

[GrimLore]

About the time I think I have a handle on this, you come along with that statement and confuse my thinking all over again.

Do you live in Japan or plan on showing to Japanese Artists Judging your work? OK, well then look, read, and come up with what you and yours enjoy!

Grimmy

 

[Djtommy]

Do you live in Japan or plan on showing to Japanese Artists Judging your work? OK, well then look, read, and come up with what you and yours enjoy!

Grimmy

Do you think bonsai in japan always follow all the “rules” in big shows?
I think most people don’t really know how bonsai is being practiced in japan.
I have been going to Tojuen for a while now (though lately due to moving I have not) but not once have I been teached about rules to follow, when I ask for an opinion on how to style a certain tree for myself or listen about other people’s trees, focus is always much more on movement, creating flow in a tree and or if there are interesting parts in a tree to put emphasis.
I’m sure unconsciously a lot of decisions will follow rules but then often that’s just because it makes the tree look better.

Sure lots of trees look similar, bonsai are grown as a business and they do the exact same thing,almost exact same bend etc with lots of seedlings and grow from that. Those people are the farmers not the bonsai artists. It takes an artist to see the potential of a good tree in the heap of boring stock that is being created.
Someone growing 1000s of trees in the field ain’t got time to worry about artistic freedom..
That’s what his clients are supposed to do.

That said, one thing which is common and which I don’t like about Japanese trees is that they have to much folliage, to full looking. Lots of trees had a time they looked better when they were less developed. When ramification becomes to much is where japan is at in my opinion. Is that a rule problem? Perhaps It is.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Creativity stifled by/in those who slavishly adhere to established rules, also "established" techniques for certain trees and also insist others follow slavishly as they do. Because "their" vast experience proves they are right.

 

[Dav4]

Creativity stifled by/in those who slavishly adhere to established rules, also "established" techniques for certain trees and also insist others follow slavishly as they do. Because "their" vast experience proves they are right.

Dude, this thread is almost a week old the post count is in the 70's... you're late.

As far as the OP is concerned, the rules are there for a reason. It's hard to make a convincing and pleasing image without following them. Still, there are those trees with a design that breaks multiple rules and still make my heart sing.... those are unique and special trees.

 

[rockm]

I recently (seemed pertinent to the thread at the time) mentioned that I’m in that group of people. I have very briefly visited a couple great collections once, otherwise virtually no personal exposure. Not so much proud of bonsai hermitage, if anything it’s slightly embarrassing. I am proud of what I’ve accomplished so far though. I agree with you that it’s a disadvantage so a bit of pride in solo accomplishments is not unreasonable is it?

You aren't in the group I was talking about. There are a few people out there that won't leave their backyards to look at stuff. Not many, but there are some.

 

[wrcmad]

Do you live in Japan or plan on showing to Japanese Artists Judging your work? OK, well then look, read, and come up with what you and yours enjoy!

Grimmy

Go and see Kokufu-ten...… barely a tree on show that conforms to the rules.

 

[Vance Wood]

Dude, this thread is almost a week old the post count is in the 70's... you're late.

As far as the OP is concerned, the rules are there for a reason. It's hard to make a convincing and pleasing image without following them. Still, there are those trees with a design that breaks multiple rules and still make my heart sing.... those are unique and special trees.

Come on! So what! New people coming to the thread may have different ideas old people my have changed their minds and want to express so. As you grow in bonsai often your point of view will change as experience shapes your artistic point of view or the rules pour you into a mould.

 

[rockm]

Go and see Kokufu-ten...… barely a tree on show that conforms to the rules.

You're joking right? Some conform closely to them...others not...Bottom line, they all use the same design techniques that 'the rules" mostly embody. For instance, find a branch growing from inside a curve...
http://www.magiminiland.org/Days/Kokufutenb.html

 

[wrcmad]

You're joking right? Some conform closely to them...others not...Bottom line, they all use the same design techniques that 'the rules" mostly embody. For instance, find a branch growing from inside a curve...
http://www.magiminiland.org/Days/Kokufutenb.html

Not joking. Have you ever been and visited?
I have been a few times, and most of the branching is nothing like the "rules"... though from a picture it appears to be.