H.D. Material VS established pre-bonsai

Vance Wood said:
This has been a common mantra around here for a long time. It's not wrong but it is kind of elitist in nature setting a parameter that takes more disposable wealth than many, if not most of us do not posses. What is the difference between nursery material and pre-bonsai? There is no such thing as pre-bonsai seeds, and the only thing that is special about pre-bonsai is the fact that the tree even if obtained from the dreaded box store nursery originally, has been cared for and cultivated by someone who is focused on bonsai. That tree as it turns out gains interest through the years and can become quite costly to you if you take a fancy to it and see a bonsai in it. Some people in American bonsai seem to think any solution to obtaining material for bonsai, less than spending a lot of money or a lot of time and travel to obtain material, is not really doing bonsai. Some how all of those nursery grown trees converted into bonsai are less than acceptable in their eyes. They are somehow fraudulant like a Tanuki graft. The trees have not been acquired in the proper way.

Three trees: #1 Hinoki Cypress started from a $6.99 nursery tree obtained for a demonstration in 1994
#2 Shimpaku Juniper from a nursery tree obtained in 2000 for $20.00
#3 Shaimpaku Juniper from the same batch of nursery trees in 2000 for $20.00
Are any of these trees masterpieces? No of course not but I have won awards with two of them over the years. Most important; I am having fun doing and learning how to do bonsai.

View attachment 202912View attachment 202913View attachment 202914
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I absolutely love tree #2. It looks perfect in that pot. Very nice!
 
Everyone seems to be focusing on the economics of this thread and are not looking at the point made by the original poster, that being overly critical of newbies, or new members can be very discouraging to them. I think the bulk of people on Bonsainut want to see our hobby and community grow, so wouldn't it be better to encourage the newbie instead?
 
I think it is important to remember that we are each on a journey in bonsai. Where we are each looking to go and how we would like to get there will and should be different for each of us. I am only a few years into my journey now, but I am admittedly obsessed, and want to become as good at this art and practice as I can be. Buying inexpensive material was totally the right way for me to begin, and with each passing year I feel more comfortable investing in more expensive material. With each purchase I got better at caring for my trees and was able to make mistakes that were easy to live with. I also learned a lot from every purchase in regard to what I look for in future purchases, as I began to learn what can and cannot be easily changed in a tree. I now have seedlings that I want to learn how to develop in the long run, I have nursery stock to work with, I have trees that I have collected from our forests, and I have trees that have spent decades in other's care that I am learning to refine and progress. I am a subscriber to Mirai, and I find what I take from watching those videos to be incredibly valuable to me. I read this forum like an addict. I send e-maiIs to different professionals with questions that apply to their specialties. I don't have to make every mistake myself to learn every little lesson through trial and error. I have a better sense of design and technique from watching these videos and asking these questions, and a greater sense of confidence when I apply what I'm learning, so that the time I spend practicing and implementing this stuff makes it truly worthwhile. I don't treat anyone's word as gospel, and I try to reach out to as many different people as I can when I am looking for advice, as there is no one right way to do anything. The best and most knowledgeable pros and people on this site all have different ways of doing things and various opinions, but they all turn out great trees. They don't take the same path, and they don't get to the same destination, but where they each get is wonderful bonsai. Choosing to be on team Ryan or team Boon or team Walter, or team anybody is silly, when each of these and so many more people have so much to offer us that are early on in our journey. So much time is being spent on here right now critiquing how everybody is learning and where they're choosing to find help, rather than spending time and energy just sharing valuable information and letting people find their path to better bonsai. I am thankful to Al, Adair, Brian, Sergio, Walter, Scott, Vance, and so many other people on this forum for the valuable information they share. Hopefully one day I will have lived with my trees long enough to have valuable information of my own to share with whoever stops by the nut next.
 
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The garden centers that supply the local box stores around me provide plenty of great options for future bonsai, but they're few and far between....and you gotta look hard...

I have several Yews from there and they're all on their way to becoming nice trees in the future...
Are they going to look like a 300 year old collected mountain tree in my lifetime? No....but my goal is to make them nice enough that a future bonsai artist will be excited and honored to take them to the next level when I go to meet my maker.

I think its counterproductive to shun the notion of box store material...so what if they don't win Kokufu some day...they will have served the purpose of being building blocks of bonsai knowledge for a beginner....and I'd rather see a box store plant get killed by over working, than a decent pre-bonsai that could really be great in the right hands.
 
Josh88 said:
I think it is important to remember that we are each on a journey in bonsai. Where we are each looking to go and how we would like to get there will and should be different for each of us. I am only a few years into my journey now, but I am admittedly obsessed, and want to become as good at this art and practice as I can be. Buying inexpensive material was totally the right way for me to begin, and with each passing year I feel more comfortable investing in more expensive material. With each purchase I got better at caring for my trees and was able to make mistakes that were easy to live with. I also learned a lot from every purchase in regard to what I look for in future purchases, as I began to learn what can and cannot be easily changed in a tree. I now have seedlings that I want to learn how to develop in the long run, I have nursery stock to work with, I have trees that I have collected from our forests, and I have trees that have spent decades in other's care that I am learning to refine and progress. I am a subscriber to Mirai, and I find what I take from watching those videos to be incredibly valuable to me. I read this forum like an addict. I send e-maiIs to different professionals with questions that apply to their specialties. I don't have to make every mistake myself to learn every little lesson through trial and error. I have a better sense of design and technique from watching these videos and asking these questions, and a greater sense of confidence when I apply what I'm learning, so that the time I spend practicing and implementing this stuff makes it truly worthwhile. I don't treat anyone's word as gospel, and I try to reach out to as many different people as I can when I am looking for advice, as there is no one right way to do anything. The best and most knowledgeable pros and people on this site all have different ways of doing things and various opinions, but they all turn out great trees. They don't take the same path, and they don't get to the same destination, but where they each get is wonderful bonsai. Choosing to be on team Ryan or team Boon or team Walter, or team anybody is silly, when each of these and so many more people have so much to offer us that are early on in our journey. So much time is being spent on here right now critiquing how everybody is learning and where they're choosing to find help, rather than spending time and energy just sharing valuable information and letting people find their path to better bonsai. I am thankful to Al, Adair, Brian, Sergio, Walter, Scott, Vance, and so many other people on this forum for the valuable information they share. Hopefully one day I will have lived with my trees long enough to have valuable information of my own to share with whoever stops by the nut next.
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Yeah! What he said!
 
James W. said:
My experience, I realize I may not be typical.
About 12 years ago I decided I wanted to try to do bonsai. I have a lot of gardening experience so I think I know everything about growing plants. I bought a couple of books and spent months reading whatever I could find on the internet. I went to a local bonsai show and saw a demonstration. I paid good attention to what "everyone" says are the best for bonsai and went shopping. I want to make good bonsai, so I tried to get some good material. I spent a bunch of money. And killed everything. I killed trees in every possible way. So I got some more. And killed them. At this point (in retrospect) I was so ignorant that I didn't even know what questions to ask. I decided to try cheaper trees, and found out I don't even know enough to keep nursery trees alive. At this point I have burned up a couple thousand dollars (don't tell my wife) and have nothing to show for it.
I continued my research and talked to some local bonsai guys. I decided to figure out what kind of tree I can keep alive. Since then I have been starting and buying a lot of little trees. I have some in the ground. I even started a bunch of JBP this spring. I still kill a lot of trees, but not as quickly as I used to. Right now I would be insane to spend $$$ on any kind of maple, I have killed every one I touched. I ought to be smart enough to grow azaleas, but I have only 2 survivors. Elms are working OK for me so far. Surprisingly, a few mugo pines and a couple DAS haven't died yet.
Right now, I'm thinking I might know enough to get something with some potential and try to style it. But I'm probably wrong and I certainly am not going to spend any serious money to find out.
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Funny I had the opposite experience and had no gardening experience. Back in 94 or so, I was getting into bonsai with the typical butchered mugo pines and nursery maples. BUT I also made a trip up to Chase Rosade's Nursery in Pennsylvania. I was just married at the time, but had no children, so I had some cash that probably would have gone towards beer anyway. I picked up a $400 imported Korean hornbeam from Chase. It was a "finished" tree or there abouts. I didn't really give a crap. It was a beautiful thing.

Got the tree home and my new spouse asked me "how much was
just.wing.it said:
The garden centers that supply the local box stores around me provide plenty of great options for future bonsai, but they're few and far between....and you gotta look hard...

I have several Yews from there and they're all on their way to becoming nice trees in the future...
Are they going to look like a 300 year old collected mountain tree in my lifetime? No....but my goal is to make them nice enough that a future bonsai artist will be excited and honored to take them to the next level when I go to meet my maker.

I think its counterproductive to shun the notion of box store material...so what if they don't win Kokufu some day...they will have served the purpose of being building blocks of bonsai knowledge for a beginner....and I'd rather see a box store plant get killed by over working, than a decent pre-bonsai that could really be great in the right hands.
Click to expand...

Shun box store stuff? No. It's priced right for those just getting into bonsai. It's also disposable when it dies...

Think it will produce excellent bonsai? No too...
 
I think I paid maybe $80 for this bougainvillea way back when...I seen potential. Just for the quirkiness of the trunk. I would rather add one tree with character than several totaling $80.
image.jpg


Not done by any means...needs correctly planted in that pot. This was one of my earlier repotting attempts. (Also had a different front...Vin convinced me to use this side. He was bang on.)
image.jpg
 
atlarsenal said:
It’s a beautiful bougie! If you recall, I have commented on it before. Always like seeing it.
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Thank you...yes, I do recall that. ?...I remember a few who tried to persuade me to pass on the purchase. It was an ugly duckling. Not worth ones effort. I would like to think...I proved them wrong. ?

This is the one that agitates the hubs...he feels ones should see it. In a show of some sort...it's far from that though. Maybe one day he will break me. And push me further .
 
just.wing.it said:
But can serve to train oneself in the disciplines of bonsai...just in case oneself ever wants to purchase a major heavy hitter tree.
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Your missing the point like most here always do. It’s not that you want to buy cheap and kill. Or buy cheap and learn. Do just that my hats off to you.

But then two months later that same guy here is telling everyone how to do bonsai and I would do this and that branch should be cut off. Then I come along and tell that two month old self proclaimed expert their wrong and this is why, and then I’m a racist and a homophobe. Please.... post at the experience level your at. There are plenty of people here that see right thru the veiled “ I’m an expert” thing. Come on. Like I said when I ask for the trees to see what you really know that’s when they finally shut up or get personal. I been doing this too long... no BS
 
Bananaman said:
Your missing the point like most here always do. It’s not that you want to buy cheap and kill. Or buy cheap and learn. Do just that my hats off to you.

But then two months later that same guy here is telling everyone how to do bonsai and I would do this and that branch should be cut off. Then I come along and tell that two month old self proclaimed expert their wrong and this is why, and then I’m a racist and a homophobe. Please.... post at the experience level your at. There are plenty of people here that see right thru the veiled “ I’m an expert” thing. Come on. Like I said when I ask for the trees to see what you really know that’s when they finally shut up or get personal. I been doing this too long... no BS
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Maybe a lack punctuation in your first couple lines there...but I dunno what you mean.

I dont aim to kill anything, doesn't matter if its cheap....

Also, I'm not discussing the price of anything.
I'm discussing the potential quality of the material.
Furthermore, I never pretend to know things.

I am aware my own known unknowns.
 
Bananaman said:
Your missing the point like most here always do. It’s not that you want to buy cheap and kill. Or buy cheap and learn. Do just that my hats off to you.

But then two months later that same guy here is telling everyone how to do bonsai and I would do this and that branch should be cut off. Then I come along and tell that two month old self proclaimed expert their wrong and this is why, and then I’m a racist and a homophobe. Please.... post at the experience level your at. There are plenty of people here that see right thru the veiled “ I’m an expert” thing. Come on. Like I said when I ask for the trees to see what you really know that’s when they finally shut up or get personal. I been doing this too long... no BS
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I know he's not going to respond to my post even though he'll read it, but I'd love to see some specific examples of this. We've all seen the "2 month expert" thing but I can't recall anyone calling Al a racist or homophobe after getting called out. I suspect this is just more hyperbole but if Al can prove it, I'll never comment negatively on one of his posts again. Promise! LOL.
 
Bananaman said:
Do just that my hats off to you.
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This part....???
What?
You're telling me to kill cheap trees and then you're going to take your hat off to me....?
I know the "hat's off to you" cliche, but what???

Edit:
And seriously, did I say anything about price?
No.
 
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Anthony said:
It's a -HOBBY - please just enjoy yourself.

Remember the Design is what makes the difference.


Try not to get caught up in this $$$ bestest tree nonsense.

Good Day
Anthony
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I agree Anthony.

I would rather look at a nicely shaped twig than a big fat trident with horizontal branches. One's free and the other one's $1000. All about perspective!
 
Vance Wood said:
This has been a common mantra around here for a long time. It's not wrong but it is kind of elitist in nature setting a parameter that takes more disposable wealth than many, if not most of us do not posses. What is the difference between nursery material and pre-bonsai? There is no such thing as pre-bonsai seeds, and the only thing that is special about pre-bonsai is the fact that the tree even if obtained from the dreaded box store nursery originally, has been cared for and cultivated by someone who is focused on bonsai. That tree as it turns out gains interest through the years and can become quite costly to you if you take a fancy to it and see a bonsai in it. Some people in American bonsai seem to think any solution to obtaining material for bonsai, less than spending a lot of money or a lot of time and travel to obtain material, is not really doing bonsai. Some how all of those nursery grown trees converted into bonsai are less than acceptable in their eyes. They are somehow fraudulant like a Tanuki graft. The trees have not been acquired in the proper way.

Three trees: #1 Hinoki Cypress started from a $6.99 nursery tree obtained for a demonstration in 1994
#2 Shimpaku Juniper from a nursery tree obtained in 2000 for $20.00
#3 Shaimpaku Juniper from the same batch of nursery trees in 2000 for $20.00
Are any of these trees masterpieces? No of course not but I have won awards with two of them over the years. Most important; I am having fun doing and learning how to do bonsai.

View attachment 202912View attachment 202913View attachment 202914
Click to expand...
Nice hinoki you've got there. This is a perfect ''no need for further wiring tree'' :p
 
Cadillactaste said:
I think I paid maybe $80 for this bougainvillea way back when...I seen potential. Just for the quirkiness of the trunk. I would rather add one tree with character than several totaling $80.
View attachment 202947


Not done by any means...needs correctly planted in that pot. This was one of my earlier repotting attempts. (Also had a different front...Vin convinced me to use this side. He was bang on.)
View attachment 202946
Click to expand...
Nice! I rather like it horizontal but either way.....very nice.
 
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