Collected river (creek) sand

[Deleted member 43661]

Hi all,

I have read all over not to use ground soil for bonsai. This makes sense for reasons surrounding airflow, soil hardening, etc.

I collected this gritty creek sand the other day from scooping the top layer of rock beds in and around creek water. It’s a pretty large creek. The further down I dug, the more fine the sand/grit was.

So once this is all sifted out into plausible sizes, would it be advisable to use it for bonsai, or any patio trees? Are there any possibilities of molds or fungi or anything of that nature that could hurt a tree? What other mediums could be added to this grit? Also, does it matter if it comes from a river or from a creek?

Any other info welcomed thank you

 

[MichaelS]

Absolutely you can use it as long as your are sure that 1/ it is not alkaline (contains lime or limestone) and 2/ that it is free of pathogens.
Check for lime by putting a drop of hydrochloric acid on some on it. If it bubbles it has lime. Pathogens can be killed by putting boiling water over it.

 

[Scorpius]

I know you're trying to save money on bonsai substrate, but just buy the correct components. Sand in a bonsai substrate mix is a bad idea.

 

[ShadyStump]

River sand has been considered the traditional standard for 100s of years, before the common availability of akadama, pumice, lava, or a dozen other options. Even within the past 50 years it was still recommended.
And yes, a creek counts.

The idea is coarse, angular particles that won't compact, which why in the old school books they recommend going as far upstream as you can for it. It allows tiny spaces for air, water and roots to move in. You'll want to dry it out and sift it well. A common kitchen sieve, or anything about like a window screen will do.
There's not much in a creek that will hurt your trees, but if you're worried about it there's the boiling water as mentioned, or lay it out in the sun for all day. The UV will kill most things of concern.

Upsides: can be had for free; great excuse to get out in the hills
Downsides: doesn't hold water for crap compared to other media; heavy; no telling it's exact composition; allot goes almost nowhere; labor intensive

Mixing in some coco coir can help with water retention, but can also impact air exchange.
I've done it myself to reasonable effect, and also decomposed granite. I'm broke and live in the Rockies, so paying for dirt is hard for me to justify. The problem is the time and labor factor. I could spend all day sifting my own substrate in the mountains, then another having over 100lbs of stuff to haul out on foot, then still have a mediocre product.
It just depends on what your priorities are.

 

[BrightsideB]

We use it in a mix for our succulents and other plants. As well as for seedlings and freshly rooted cuttings. I wouldn’t use it for a tree in a bonsai pot. But I also never tried.

 

[Pixar]

I'm using it with my bonsai trees also using Ocean sand ( east coast of NZ )

 

[Shibui]

I use a commercial bonsai mix which has 30% coarse sand. River/creek sand is fine as a component but it is very important to screen out finer particles.

 

[rockm]

"River sand" originated in translations of Japanese soil ingredients a long time ago. . It's been picked up very literally by western growers and misunderstood ever since. What the Japanese mean by "river sand" is NOT what it seems to Westerners. Using the crap you've dug up from a creek isn't the equivalent and is likely to not do much good, and could be detrimental.

Japanese Kiryuzuna "River Sand"--

Kiryu - Japanese Bonsai Soil - Kiryuzuna

Kiryu is a porous, hard volcanic stone for mixing your own bonsai soil. In Japan it is commonly used the same way lava is used here in the United States. Japanese soil mixes commonly include Akadama, Hyuga Pumice and Kiryu. Kiryu translates to "river sand" in Japanese. Grain Size - 5mm - 1/16"...

www.superflybonsai.com

It's porous, volcanic origin particles similar to our pumice. It's not fine particled sludge from the bottom of a creek in the backyard, which will clog drainage and possibly (if the collected soil in is a polluted watershed) contain run off chemicals and other bad things.

If you're after a decent sand for bonsai mix, try swimming pool filter sand. Angular inert and available...

https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-White-Swimming-Pool-Filter/dp/B00VSNUO6S

 

[Potawatomi13]

Depending. IF watered correctly "Can" be used. Too fine too H2O retentive. Too coarse not H20 retentive. Personally will not use as Pumice 100% better and mixed with some rotted/sifted bark also good for broadleaf trees.

 

[MichaelS]

I know you're trying to save money on bonsai substrate, but just buy the correct components. Sand in a bonsai substrate mix is a bad idea.

Huh. I didn't know I've been doing the wrong thing for 40 years!

 

[Paradox]

Been there, done that.

Found that it didn't work as well as better soil components do.

 

[ShadyStump]

"River sand" originated in translations of Japanese soil ingredients a long time ago. . It's been picked up very literally by western growers and misunderstood ever since. What the Japanese mean by "river sand" is NOT what it seems to Westerners. Using the crap you've dug up from a creek isn't the equivalent and is likely to not do much good, and could be detrimental.

Japanese Kiryuzuna "River Sand"--

Kiryu - Japanese Bonsai Soil - Kiryuzuna

Kiryu is a porous, hard volcanic stone for mixing your own bonsai soil. In Japan it is commonly used the same way lava is used here in the United States. Japanese soil mixes commonly include Akadama, Hyuga Pumice and Kiryu. Kiryu translates to "river sand" in Japanese. Grain Size - 5mm - 1/16"...

www.superflybonsai.com

It's porous, volcanic origin particles similar to our pumice. It's not fine particled sludge from the bottom of a creek in the backyard, which will clog drainage and possibly (if the collected soil in is a polluted watershed) contain run off chemicals and other bad things.

If you're after a decent sand for bonsai mix, try swimming pool filter sand. Angular inert and available...

https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-White-Swimming-Pool-Filter/dp/B00VSNUO6S

This is something I didn't know before. Thanks for that, though I've read books by Japanese and Chinese authors that still say, "river sand from upstream." Some go into some detail about finding it. If they're aware that the term does not mean exactly the same thing in American English as in Japanese our Mandarin, and that the geology in other parts of the world is different, then I have to assume that real, regular, run of the mill sand from rivers and creeks is what they mean in a significant portion of the references.

I'll also say otherwise that actual sand has been and can be used as an effective soil component.

fine particled sludge

...is not sand. It's sludge, mud, extra wet clay and dirt. Not sand. You sift and clean it just like we'd encourage anyone to do with any substrate, and you're left with something that can be rather effective.
Most people don't understand the level of work that goes into extracting and processing even just raw aggregate. Something as simple as granite gravel is allot more labor intensive than just grabbing a scoop of ground with a bulldozer and calling it done. I'll see if I can get you all a pic of the quarry right outside town. Mostly produces red granite products, but quartz, pyrite, iron ores, sandstone, and plenty of others come out of it, and the amount and scale of equipment - not even going in to the high explosives - involved is mind-blowing. And it's one of the smaller operations.
 Blasting out the bedrock, scooping up the not-boulder-size stuff, sifting and grading it, sorting the varying materials, washing them and transporting them. THIS is what really makes collecting your own soil components a bad idea. All to get to the not-sludge point.

Sorry to say @JWlikestrees , but half of what I see in your bucket in the pic is dead weight. Mix it in your regular potting or succulent mix, maybe add some gritty silt to the garden plot, but certainly not in a bonsai pot.
if you want to try again, I recommend bringing along a sieve, your dog and a picnic lunch, and do most of the work there. You'll cary out the same weight, but have all usable product. There's a bit of technique to collecting it yourself. Find spots that are more aggregate than fines, and dig as shallow as you can. Here in Colorado it's easy to find good sand on your own, but in Illinois you'll have to hunt a bit more. Rivers and creeks are about your only reasonable option.

 

[rockm]

This is something I didn't know before. Thanks for that, though I've read books by Japanese and Chinese authors that still say, "river sand from upstream." Some go into some detail about finding it. If they're aware that the term does not mean exactly the same thing in American English as in Japanese our Mandarin, and that the geology in other parts of the world is different, then I have to assume that real, regular, run of the mill sand from rivers and creeks is what they mean in a significant portion of the references.

I'll also say otherwise that actual sand has been and can be used as an effective soil component.

...is not sand. It's sludge, mud, extra wet clay and dirt. Not sand. You sift and clean it just like we'd encourage anyone to do with any substrate, and you're left with something that can be rather effective.
Most people don't understand the level of work that goes into extracting and processing even just raw aggregate. Something as simple as granite gravel is allot more labor intensive than just grabbing a scoop of ground with a bulldozer and calling it done. I'll see if I can get you all a pic of the quarry right outside town. Mostly produces red granite products, but quartz, pyrite, iron ores, sandstone, and plenty of others come out of it, and the amount and scale of equipment - not even going in to the high explosives - involved is mind-blowing. And it's one of the smaller operations.
 Blasting out the bedrock, scooping up the not-boulder-size stuff, sifting and grading it, sorting the varying materials, washing them and transporting them. THIS is what really makes collecting your own soil components a bad idea. All to get to the not-sludge point.

Sorry to say @JWlikestrees , but half of what I see in your bucket in the pic is dead weight. Mix it in your regular potting or succulent mix, maybe add some gritty silt to the garden plot, but certainly not in a bonsai pot.
if you want to try again, I recommend bringing along a sieve, your dog and a picnic lunch, and do most of the work there. You'll cary out the same weight, but have all usable product. There's a bit of technique to collecting it yourself. Find spots that are more aggregate than fines, and dig as shallow as you can. Here in Colorado it's easy to find good sand on your own, but in Illinois you'll have to hunt a bit more. Rivers and creeks are about your only reasonable option.

"This is something I didn't know before. Thanks for that, though I've read books by Japanese and Chinese authors that still say, "river sand from upstream." Some go into some detail about finding it. If they're aware that the term does not mean exactly the same thing in American English as in Japanese our Mandarin, and that the geology in other parts of the world is different, then I have to assume that real, regular, run of the mill sand from rivers and creeks is what they mean in a significant portion of the references."

I don't know what texts you're reading, but how old are they? "Run of the mill" river sand dug up from "upstream" is probably not what Japanese nurseries are using, but I may be wrong.

 

[ShadyStump]

I have three older volumes here I bought this past spring that I believe all mention it somewhere, though I don't have the time to look for the exact reference right now.
Penjing: The Chinese Art of Miniature Gardens; Hu Yunhua; 1982
Bonsai With American Trees; Masakuni Kawasumi; 1975
The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes; Yuji Yoshimura and Giovanna M. Halford; 1957

Each, on the topic of soil, mentions coarse river sand, recommending something collected from upstream where it's been subject to less erosion, leaving more angular grains.
Now, coming from the Japanese authors, it could be that the kiryu is so common in rivers and and streams in Japan that it's not even thought about, like here in Colorado the assumption is that all river sand is granite based. Bonsai practitioners are not geologists after all. But when the same recommendation is made by a Chinese author for penjing, coming from a place of very different geology, I have to assume that coarse river sand of any makeup can be used to some degree of effectiveness.

Please understand I'm not trying to just fight with you. I'm trying to further discussion and understanding of the art. The whole river sand thing does sound like the sort of thing that would be an old wives tale. And there almost certainly must be some nuance lost; an understanding in the Eastern world of bonsai so basic to them that its not even thought about, much less explained, when describing it to Westerners.

 

[rockm]

I have three older volumes here I bought this past spring that I believe all mention it somewhere, though I don't have the time to look for the exact reference right now.
Penjing: The Chinese Art of Miniature Gardens; Hu Yunhua; 1982
Bonsai With American Trees; Masakuni Kawasumi; 1975
The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes; Yuji Yoshimura and Giovanna M. Halford; 1957

Each, on the topic of soil, mentions coarse river sand, recommending something collected from upstream where it's been subject to less erosion, leaving more angular grains.
Now, coming from the Japanese authors, it could be that the kiryu is so common in rivers and and streams in Japan that it's not even thought about, like here in Colorado the assumption is that all river sand is granite based. Bonsai practitioners are not geologists after all. But when the same recommendation is made by a Chinese author for penjing, coming from a place of very different geology, I have to assume that coarse river sand of any makeup can be used to some degree of effectiveness.

Please understand I'm not trying to just fight with you. I'm trying to further discussion and understanding of the art. The whole river sand thing does sound like the sort of thing that would be an old wives tale. And there almost certainly must be some nuance lost; an understanding in the Eastern world of bonsai so basic to them that its not even thought about, much less explained, when describing it to Westerners.

It is an old wives' tale and a misunderstanding that came from early American and Western bonsai. Back in the 70-early 90's when the books you're citing were published, EVERYTHING Japanese was considered "the true way" for the most part. That lead to all kinds of stupid shit based on hearsay and misunderstandings, especially for soil, as articles were mistranslated and many inaccurate assumptions were made (see Ice water and raffia for a particular example that played out online back in the day). The thing Americans and Europeans didn't really "get" was the baseline for soil in Japan. Their soils are volcanic in origin. The kinds of porous, granular soil that holds water and releases it gradually isn't readily available in North America for the most part. Those readily-available soils are one of the reasons bonsai has flourished in Japan.

China is a strange case for bonsai. In the 60's and 70's Mainland China discouraged bonsai as a hobby of the middle class bourgeoisie and upper classes. Many collections were actively destroyed and some practitioners died. Some practitioners kept things going, but the Cultural Revolution destroyed a lot of the penjing/bonsai infrastructure there. The remaining practitioners had to make due with what was available, which might not have been the best or even adequate.

Soil mixes back then were far inferior to what is available now, primarily due to the West's increasingly informed understanding of soil requirements for bonsai. That is the result of having actual westerners in Japan seeing what bonsai nurseries use, as well as an increasing number of sources in the U.S. importing Japanese soil ingredients. Westerners don't necessarily use those imported soils, but seeing real life examples of what is used at the top bonsai nurseries on the planet has had an impact.