Bought these mumes that I plan to use for cuttings

[Canada Bonsai]

(my usual disclaimer: propagating unique cultivars by cutting (whether winter or may/june) is, in almost all cases, an unecessary and often counter-productive approach to creating fine prunus mume bonsai)

@River's Edge

Here are some hardwood cuttings taken in december for you

12 cultivars per tray
10 cuttings per cultivar
6 trays
(72 cultivars total)

For just over 20 cultivars, at least 1/10 cuttings have rooted and are growing strong, and for most cultivars at least 3/10 are doing well. When i take the same sample with cuttings in May-July, the results are better for all cultivars without exception. Every. Single. Cultivar.

Nonetheless, while winter hardwood cuttings remains one—albeit inefficient—way of spreading cultivars to many hobbyists, it has yet to be shown by anybody (and i have asked many times…) why there would be any advantage to starting a prunus mume bonsai this way — once again i ask, please, post some pictures of fine Prunus mume bonsai where you could say that there would have been an advantage to starting off with a cultivar on its own roots.

The reason why a decade has gone by and i still have not seen any pictures from you yet is because starting off with (95% of) these cultivars on their own roots just totally misunderstands the horticultural and technical requirements of developing prunus mume bonsai, regardless of whether we’re talking cuttings taken in winter or May-July.

It is important to believe in what you are doing, and respect the rights of others to choose their own approach

That’s a nice rhetorical twist you’re putting on it Frank, but as an educator it’s also important not to encourage bad behavior, debunked/inefficient strategies, and dead-end paths.

A vast majority of the emails that i receive about prunus mume propagation are STILL from people who have read your posts on this forum and are stuggling to succeed and want my advice — unfortunately, they have wasted multiple years of their lives (not to mention resources) trying to propagate prunus mume in November

 

[Paradox]

I have a tall Peggy Clark that I bought last year that I plan to use for cuttings at some point.

I would love any suggestions on the best way to do that so I have the best chance to be successful at it.
Its the only mume I've been able to get because Brent has been having a hard time cultivating them in his climate the last few years so I decided to try it myself....

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I have a tall Peggy Clark that I bought last year that I plan to use for cuttings at some point.

I would love any suggestions on the best way to do that so I have the best chance to be successful at it.

***I have not tried Peggy Clarke***

Do you generally take Acer palmatum cuttings? A good reference (if your trees are all treated the same way) is to take Prunus meme cuttings about 4 weeks after Acer palmatum cuttings. For me, Acer palmatum cuttings peak around early to mid May (using the 'snap test'), and I take my Prunus mume cuttings from early to mid June. I have gone as late as last week of June or first week of July, and did not notice a difference in success rates -- this was a 2nd batch after my 1st batch rooted and got moved out of the humidity tent. The reason I use Acer palmatum as a reference is because you can't really use a 'snap test' for Prunus mume (since it snaps almost immediately) and the leaves are not a reliable indicator. If I was going in blind, I'd bet heavily on June 15-28 or, if I had enough material I'd take some June 7, 14, 21, 28 and July 7, more or less.

After they've rooted, I gradually acclimate them from 100% humidity and shade to a regular outdoor bench. I do not repot the until January (6-7 months later).

Conditions
100% humidity
75F bottom heat (has worked fine for me without out bottom heat, depends on the sun/weather)
0.8IBA (powder works well, although I have started an using an overnight liquid -- too early to report on results)
100% akadama (to minimize the number of waterings and thereby maximize length of time before your rooting hormone gets washed away)
My propagation tent gets direct light from sunrise to about noon. I use 50% shade cloth + 6mm polyethylene to diffuse light
Fungicide every 7 days (I personally alternate fungicides that are watered into the substrate VS foliar sprays)
Space them well (e.g. an inch in each direction)

Results
Some cultivars get 100% (literally), some cultivars get 0%, and other cultivars get some percentage in between. Any cultivar that has ever worked for me with winter-time cuttings has worked better with cuttings taken in June. Working with +70 cultivars, I have yet to experience an exception to this. Having met with Prunus mume bonsai propagators and true Ume-devoted specialists (farmers, bonsai nurseries, garden centres, scientists) across Japan, I have not met a single person who takes cuttings in winter for Prunus mume.

Cutting shape/size
Attached is an image from Kyosuke Gun's book because there is nothing better than a visual to describe what a cutting should look like in term of length, leaf cutting, and planting depth

Idea
If Peggy Clarke is all you've got, then yes work with that. Ideally, it would be more advantageous to start with something particularly vigorous (and maybe Peggy Clarke is, I don't know). Seeds (those that prove to be vigorous) and cuttings of vigorous 'wild varieties' are generally a good place to start. Brent doesn't have any seedlings or 'wild' strains he can sell you? Does the rootstock of your Peggy Clark send out suckers? If so, take cuttings from that!

 

[Paradox]

***I have not tried Peggy Clarke***

Do you generally take Acer palmatum cuttings? A good reference (if your trees are all treated the same way) is to take Prunus meme cuttings about 4 weeks after Acer palmatum cuttings. For me, Acer palmatum cuttings peak around early to mid May (using the 'snap test'), and I take my Prunus mume cuttings from early to mid June. I have gone as late as last week of June or first week of July, and did not notice a difference in success rates -- this was a 2nd batch after my 1st batch rooted and got moved out of the humidity tent. The reason I use Acer palmatum as a reference is because you can't really use a 'snap test' for Prunus mume (since it snaps almost immediately) and the leaves are not a reliable indicator. If I was going in blind, I'd bet heavily on June 15-28 or, if I had enough material I'd take some June 7, 14, 21, 28 and July 7, more or less.

After they've rooted, I gradually acclimate them from 100% humidity and shade to a regular outdoor bench. I do not repot the until January (6-7 months later).

Conditions
100% humidity
75F bottom heat (has worked fine for me without out bottom heat, depends on the sun/weather)
0.8IBA (powder works well, although I have started an using an overnight liquid -- too early to report on results)
100% akadama (to minimize the number of waterings and thereby maximize length of time before your rooting hormone gets washed away)
My propagation tent gets direct light from sunrise to about noon. I use 50% shade cloth + 6mm polyethylene to diffuse light
Fungicide every 7 days (I personally alternate fungicides that are watered into the substrate VS foliar sprays)
Space them well (e.g. an inch in each direction)

Results
Some cultivars get 100% (literally), some cultivars get 0%, and other cultivars get some percentage in between. Any cultivar that has ever worked for me with winter-time cuttings has worked better with cuttings taken in June. Working with +70 cultivars, I have yet to experience an exception to this. Having met with Prunus mume bonsai propagators and true Ume-devoted specialists (farmers, bonsai nurseries, garden centres, scientists) across Japan, I have not met a single person who takes cuttings in winter for Prunus mume.

Cutting shape/size
Attached is an image from Kyosuke Gun's book because there is nothing better than a visual to describe what a cutting should look like in term of length, leaf cutting, and planting depth

Idea
If Peggy Clarke is all you've got, then yes work with that. Ideally, it would be more advantageous to start with something particularly vigorous (and maybe Peggy Clarke is, I don't know). Seeds (those that prove to be vigorous) and cuttings of vigorous 'wild varieties' are generally a good place to start. Brent doesn't have any seedlings or 'wild' strains he can sell you? Does the rootstock of your Peggy Clark send out suckers? If so, take cuttings from that!

View attachment 591431

Wow thank you so much for this detailed response. I am going to copy this in a file I can reference.

I have never done maple cuttings but that is another species I plan on trying and I have 6 young maples of different varieties that I plan to try to take cuttings from when they are ready.

I know ume can be difficult. Would you reccomend trying maples before ume?

I have done juniper and willow leaf ficus cuttings with great success and tried azaleas with not so good success.

Trying to learn because it's seems to be so hard to find ume and different varieties of maples that aren't grafted here in the U.S. plus I wanted to push myself to advance my knowledge and experience in propagation

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I know ume can be difficult. Would you reccomend trying maples before ume?

They're exactly the same in the sense that it depends 100% on cultivar/strain. Some prunus mume and acer palmatum will root at 100% or close, and others will be really difficult.

plus I wanted to push myself to advance my knowledge and experience in propagation

You should definitely push yourself to practice propagation techniques, as they are often critical for the development of fine bonsai whether initially, when 'maintaning' a finished tree, or anywhere in between. Even if that means cuttings, because those can be useful to produce root grafts, thread rafts, eventual scions, and so on. (Imagine if you had a well ramified tree -- you might not want to grow out a whip to produce a thread graft or scion, since that whip will overly-thicken your fine twigs. In that case it might be easier to take cuttings, and produce whips and scions with that -- just throwing a random scenario out there for whoever is reading this ).

Trying to learn because it's seems to be so hard to find ume and different varieties of maples that aren't grafted here in the U.S.

Send me an email. I've shipped to 10 address in Long Island and over 40 in New York. When there is no source for given type of material in the USA, I'm happy to supply it. Of course it will be more rewarding if you propagate them yourself, and since the season is coming up anyways maybe try that first?

 

[Paradox]

Send me an email. I've shipped to 10 address in Long Island and over 40 in New York. When there is no source for given type of material in the USA, I'm happy to supply it. Of course it will be more rewarding if you propagate them yourself, and since the season is coming up anyways maybe try that first?

Thanks.
I'll see where I'm at with the ume and the 6 experimental maples I got last year.

I repotted the ume last spring after I got it and happy to say it survived that and is now flowering. Might give it another year to grow before I take cuttings. I'll see if it "feels" like it's growing strong to me.

The maples I got last summer and literally just repotted them today to get them into better, more stable pots and soil that won't stay so wet. One or two of them are more bushy than the others so might try a few cuttings from those two. The others need to grow a bit first. Eventually all of them will be air layered for bonsai as they are all high grafts.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks.
I'll see where I'm at with the ume and the 6 experimental maples I got last year.

I repotted the ume last spring after I got it and happy to say it survived that and is now flowering. Might give it another year to grow before I take cuttings. I'll see if it "feels" like it's growing strong to me.

The maples I got last summer and literally just repotted them today to get them into better, more stable pots and soil that won't stay so wet. One or two of them are more bushy than the others so might try a few cuttings from those two. The others need to grow a bit first. Eventually all of them will be air layered for bonsai as they are all high grafts.

View attachment 591470

if you are interested in exploring propagation by cuttings an excellent resource is Dirr & Heuser " The Reference manual of Woody Plant Propagation. Explains very clearly the various approaches and when they are most useful for particular species.
If you would like another reference reporting on the use of winter cuttings for difficult cultivars of Prunus Mume in particular there is an article in International Bonsai (1982) Tomigoro Tomaki.
The article that I wrote for the Journal of the American Bonsai Society Volume 55 Number 1 2021 clearly indicates the difficulty that can be experienced with some cultivars and climatic conditions when attempting to propagate Prunus Mume. If you are interested I have attached the written portion of the article minus the photos depicting the indoor setup used for propagation purposes. Please note the article indicates that I do not live in an area that is appropriate for field growing Prunus Mume. It is not possible for me to use that approach.

 

[Paradox]

if you are interested in exploring propagation by cuttings an excellent resource is Dirr & Heuser " The Reference manual of Woody Plant Propagation. Explains very clearly the various approaches and when they are most useful for particular species.
If you would like another reference reporting on the use of winter cuttings for difficult cultivars of Prunus Mume in particular there is an article in International Bonsai (1982) Tomigoro Tomaki.
The article that I wrote for the Journal of the American Bonsai Society Volume 55 Number 1 2021 clearly indicates the difficulty that can be experienced with some cultivars and climatic conditions when attempting to propagate Prunus Mume. If you are interested I have attached the written portion of the article minus the photos depicting the indoor setup used for propagation purposes. Please note the article indicates that I do not live in an area that is appropriate for field growing Prunus Mume. It is not possible for me to use that approach.

I have Dirr and Heuser's book.
I have the International Bonsai one. Just need to dig it out of the boxes of those magazines I have.
I should also have the ABS one as I've been a member for at least 10 years.
Thanks for those references so I can find them!

 

[River's Edge]

I have Dirr and Heuser's book.
I have the International Bonsai one. Just need to dig it out of the boxes of those magazines I have.
I should also have the ABS one as I've been a member for at least 10 years.
Thanks for those references so I can find them!

Your welcome. I would encourage you to choose an approach that works for your location and resources. If you talk with Brent Walston or follow his work you will note how when his facilities changed or as the climatic changes affected his work, he has had to modify his approaches or even change the cultivars that he propagates over time. His first operation had a very sophisticated propagation set up that worked very well for him. After moving to another location the more traditional greenhouse protection did not work so well for more difficult to root cultivars., I have not worked with " Peggy Clark" so cannot comment on that particular cultivar. Regardless of the approach you choose be careful to allow for additional growing seasons on the new cuttings prior to beginning footwork and transition to up potting. If choosing field growing check if your location has a suitable climate for growing Ume outdoors all year round. I know some successful field growing areas in California. I have seen some nice material from the Muranaki Nursery in Nipoma, California.
Best of luck

 

[Veebs]

***I have not tried Peggy Clarke***

Do you generally take Acer palmatum cuttings? A good reference (if your trees are all treated the same way) is to take Prunus meme cuttings about 4 weeks after Acer palmatum cuttings. For me, Acer palmatum cuttings peak around early to mid May (using the 'snap test'), and I take my Prunus mume cuttings from early to mid June. I have gone as late as last week of June or first week of July, and did not notice a difference in success rates -- this was a 2nd batch after my 1st batch rooted and got moved out of the humidity tent. The reason I use Acer palmatum as a reference is because you can't really use a 'snap test' for Prunus mume (since it snaps almost immediately) and the leaves are not a reliable indicator. If I was going in blind, I'd bet heavily on June 15-28 or, if I had enough material I'd take some June 7, 14, 21, 28 and July 7, more or less.

After they've rooted, I gradually acclimate them from 100% humidity and shade to a regular outdoor bench. I do not repot the until January (6-7 months later).

Conditions
100% humidity
75F bottom heat (has worked fine for me without out bottom heat, depends on the sun/weather)
0.8IBA (powder works well, although I have started an using an overnight liquid -- too early to report on results)
100% akadama (to minimize the number of waterings and thereby maximize length of time before your rooting hormone gets washed away)
My propagation tent gets direct light from sunrise to about noon. I use 50% shade cloth + 6mm polyethylene to diffuse light
Fungicide every 7 days (I personally alternate fungicides that are watered into the substrate VS foliar sprays)
Space them well (e.g. an inch in each direction)

Results
Some cultivars get 100% (literally), some cultivars get 0%, and other cultivars get some percentage in between. Any cultivar that has ever worked for me with winter-time cuttings has worked better with cuttings taken in June. Working with +70 cultivars, I have yet to experience an exception to this. Having met with Prunus mume bonsai propagators and true Ume-devoted specialists (farmers, bonsai nurseries, garden centres, scientists) across Japan, I have not met a single person who takes cuttings in winter for Prunus mume.

Cutting shape/size
Attached is an image from Kyosuke Gun's book because there is nothing better than a visual to describe what a cutting should look like in term of length, leaf cutting, and planting depth

Idea
If Peggy Clarke is all you've got, then yes work with that. Ideally, it would be more advantageous to start with something particularly vigorous (and maybe Peggy Clarke is, I don't know). Seeds (those that prove to be vigorous) and cuttings of vigorous 'wild varieties' are generally a good place to start. Brent doesn't have any seedlings or 'wild' strains he can sell you? Does the rootstock of your Peggy Clark send out suckers? If so, take cuttings from that!

View attachment 591431

What book is this?

 

[Bonds Guy]

The Omai-no-mama has been pushing shoots all over but im guessing it sent more than it can handle because this section randomly turned brown and I seen this before — death is coming to the tips. So I thought I might as well try to make a cutting of it. What do you guys think the chances of these tips rooting? Plan to cut right above the brown part.

 

[River's Edge]

The Omai-no-mama has been pushing shoots all over but im guessing it sent more than it can handle because this section randomly turned brown and I seen this before — death is coming to the tips. So I thought I might as well try to make a cutting of it. What do you guys think the chances of these tips rooting? Plan to cut right above the brown part.

View attachment 594590View attachment 594591

I would not expect too much luck . Cut just below a healthy bud and remove the bud. Leave two leaves if possible!
I will mention that I would be concerned about perpetuating fungal infection. If possible I would consider treating with a systemic fungal treatment and insuring new healthy growth before using the stock for propagation.


Just so you have some understanding that my comment comes from experience here is a photo of a smaller group of some cuttings I put for sale last weekend. "Kobai" is the cultivar. I try to provide some for each Open House Event in the spring and fall. Limited production.

 

[Bonds Guy]

The Omai-no-mama has been pushing shoots all over but im guessing it sent more than it can handle because this section randomly turned brown and I seen this before — death is coming to the tips. So I thought I might as well try to make a cutting of it. What do you guys think the chances of these tips rooting? Plan to cut right above the brown part.

View attachment 594590View attachment 594591

So these did not make it. But the mother plant has put out lots of growth throughout the season and quite a few shoots are still shooting. They’re not pushing as strongly as they did in late spring/early summer, but I am impressed they’re still going.

I checked the base of the tree and it has this weird gooey substance



I’m not too worried about it due to how strong the tree has been. But maybe I should be?

In other news, some time in July a piece of a branch got knocked off and I decided might as well try to make a cutting of it. Out of that branch I was able to make 3 cuttings. 1 of them died about 3 weeks ago.

The other is still kicking but has a substantial amount of dieback. I gave it a gentle tug and I felt some resistance but I don’t feel confident enough to say it has roots.



And then there’s this one



Super stoked about this one as this is my first time rooting an ume, and I’ve tried many times. Now I gotta prepare for the hardest part — winter

 

[River's Edge]

So these did not make it. But the mother plant has put out lots of growth throughout the season and quite a few shoots are still shooting. They’re not pushing as strongly as they did in late spring/early summer, but I am impressed they’re still going.

I checked the base of the tree and it has this weird gooey substance

View attachment 613085

I’m not too worried about it due to how strong the tree has been. But maybe I should be?

In other news, some time in July a piece of a branch got knocked off and I decided might as well try to make a cutting of it. Out of that branch I was able to make 3 cuttings. 1 of them died about 3 weeks ago.

The other is still kicking but has a substantial amount of dieback. I gave it a gentle tug and I felt some resistance but I don’t feel confident enough to say it has roots.

View attachment 613086View attachment 613087View attachment 613088View attachment 613089

And then there’s this one

View attachment 613090View attachment 613091View attachment 613092

Super stoked about this one as this is my first time rooting an ume, and I’ve tried many times. Now I gotta prepare for the hardest part — winter

Well done. I keep all my mume in a greenhouse. The heater is set to protect from freezing! Has worked for the last couple of decades. Would suggest you allow the roots to develop for another year before repotting. They do much better with repotting if more established.

 

[Bonds Guy]

Well done. I keep all my mume in a greenhouse. The heater is set to protect from freezing! Has worked for the last couple of decades. Would suggest you allow the roots to develop for another year before repotting. They do much better with repotting if more established.

One day I hope to have a greenhouse. In the meantime I’ll be storing them in the humidity dome with a heating pad, all placed in an unheated garage. But yeah no repotting until spring 2027

 

[Bonds Guy]

Substantial dieback has roots!!



Really shock this guy pulled through but super happy it did and a little nervous for winter.