Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I'm doing as well as possible all things considered.
Are you a Parrot?
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
“Inspiration is for amateurs - the rest of us just show up and get to work.” - Chuck Close
(Granted, Chuck’s not as popular as he was due to recent allegations about behavior unrelated to his artistic prowess... nonetheless, the quote still rings true)
One of the key things that one learns from studying with a master artist, regardless of the medium, is simply that master artists are humans. They didn’t descend from Mount Olympus. Demystifying artistic process is an important step in becoming an artist.
How many people say, “Oh, I could never do bonsai. I don’t have a green thumb. I had a bonsai that I got at Lowe’s and it died”? Or they say, “You’re so talented. I wish I could draw like that. I can’t even draw a stick figure right.” The whole concept of “talent” is largely bullshit. “Talent” is just what happens when someone is really interested and hasn’t adopted the self-defeating attitude that they can’t do it (usually because nobody told them they couldn’t or that it’s too hard) and so they pursued their interest and practiced a lot and eventually got to be good at it.
Studying with a master artist is an antidote for self-defeating attitudes because when a student starts in with the, “oh, I could never...” a good teacher says, “Hey, hold on to these pruners for a moment, would ya? Oh, hey, while you’ve got the pruners, would you mind cutting that branch there? Ok, I’ve got to go put some change in the parking meter. Would you mind peeling off all the bark on this branch here? Just do it like this. Ok, good. You do that and I’ll be right back in a minute.” They do that kind of thing over and over and subtly challenge the unconscious baggage you’re carrying around that says, “oh, I can’t do that...”
And that absolutely has a lasting effect on drive. It removes the impediments that are in the way.
All very well but still mostly about the mechanics to me. All of the students back from Japan that I know or have seen are clones and they work like automatons and all the trees they style are the same. They are concreted in their ways. I've never had a teacher and I've never experienced the impediments you speak of. I just started slowly, made mistakes and learned that way. Murata said the best way to learn bonsai is to buy yourself a few trees (not bonsai) and work on them day to day. You will end up with trees that are truly your own. That's good enough for me! You still to this day hear comments from ''masters'' like ''bonsai has nothing to do with trees'' or ''we make the bonsai better than nature'' etc. They quickly go about sterilizing the material in front of them. IMO, if you are so unsure about your approach that you need therapy from a master, you won't ever achieve much which comes from yourself. And if you do, it will come from you because of the personality you were born with, not what someone showed you. The folks working quietly on their trees at home, experimenting and making big mistakes as they go will have the finest most individual trees in the future. The others will be doing yet another workshop.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You havn't been here that long. I have seen some long enduring interested people here that try really hard yet have no talent. Is twelve years long enough to pursue an interest and not have anything to show for it?
How long should a person practice to become good? 5 years? 10 years? 20 Years? Who is the arbiter of "eventually got to be good at it"?
Definition of talent
1a : a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude
b : general intelligence or mental power : ability
2: the natural endowments of a person
3: a person of talent or a group of persons of talent in a field or activity
Talent or no.....
I came to bonsai on my own terms and I don’t particularly think I need to study long term with a bonsai master. But, I get why others do need that. What I, personally, get out of going to a workshop with a master or a bonsai club meeting is technique and a raising of my consciousness about what is possible with the medium and occasionally a nugget of philosophical perspective. But, I already know design. I’ve already had the experience of studying long term with a professional artist, but it was in a different medium (painting). I’ve already had my paintings in a gallery. Most people coming to bonsai aren’t coming from that direction.
Well, they’ve got to practice the right things and take some chances and question what is or is not working also. You could do bench presses 3x a week for 20 years and you’ll never get chiseled pecs if you’re still doing the same # of reps with the same weight you started with. They also need to LOOK at trees, look at drawings, paintings, sculpture, museum displays, etc. You won’t magically learn good design without seeing good design. Working on your own trees by yourself won’t teach you that. You need to see great trees and art to develop an eye for design.
Design? = blueprint. Don't forget that it's the tree that has the ultimate say in what happens. Design fights against this and you end up with artifice and conflict in your work. I know this because I have fought against trees for years. I'm STILL fighting them. If they win I get harmony, if I win I get cliché. Most of my trees are clichés and if people are honest they will say the same. Working with the tree is the only way.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Exactly this. Observed this this weekend when someone was very anxious to trim a nice tree back to the bones, as the tree had gotten messy. It just started with agreeing about one small branch that was clearly out of place. At the end of the morning the tree was trimmed down back to the basic frame. One branch at a time.
What about if people simply enjoy the hobby...
Enjoy “doing Bonsai”, whether it looks like a natural tree, styled correctly as to its species or followed the Japanese rules..
I think enjoyment is forgotten from the equation when these deep conversations pop up all about how “good” someone is or how good their results are.
Meh, just a thought.
I have to say, if someone did Bonsai for 10 years but all he/she ever came up with was very mediocre work, nothing special and largely unnoticed.. but if it brought them a huge sense of accomplishment and enjoyment, it distracted them from life’s disasters and misery’s, it genuinely was an escape to them... I’d envy that person, all day long.
Enjoy “doing Bonsai”, whether it looks like a natural tree, styled correctly as to its species or followed the Japanese rules..
I think enjoyment is forgotten from the equation when these deep conversations pop up all about how “good” someone is or how good their results are.
Meh, just a thought.
I have to say, if someone did Bonsai for 10 years but all he/she ever came up with was very mediocre work, nothing special and largely unnoticed.. but if it brought them a huge sense of accomplishment and enjoyment, it distracted them from life’s disasters and misery’s, it genuinely was an escape to them... I’d envy that person, all day long.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Maybe you need to listen to yourselves. It seems that some of your are trying to define yourselves as wanting to do bonsai but are absolutely void of any kind of commitment. I have nothing, I have no skills, I avoid sound teaching at all costs because I think teachers are the kind of people that will tell me the truth I don't want to hear. But; for the life of me I cannot figure out why I come here to ask advise freely offered and honestly given that I will promptly pillory and make of no substance the advise from someone who started growing bonsai before I was born. If this guy has nothing to say how can I expect anyone to respect what I have to say?
my nellie
Masterpiece
I have been following this discussion with interest and I have hit the "like" button when I was in agreement with the spirit of the specific posts.
However I feel I have nothing to contribut although I have my own mind and perspective.
But this quote reminded me of something said by @Anthony and I would like to share with you all not only Lorax in particular.
I humbly believe that this is what Mr. Al Keppler @Smoke is trying to point out...
However I feel I have nothing to contribut although I have my own mind and perspective.
But this quote reminded me of something said by @Anthony and I would like to share with you all not only Lorax in particular.
So then, I am sure you know what is meant by Anthony (fine arts) saying (not once...) that 3-5 years are needed for art students to empty their heads/minds from the master's teaching and then start to think for themselves.
I humbly believe that this is what Mr. Al Keppler @Smoke is trying to point out...
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Cable
Omono
You see this everywhere... hobbies, professions, politics, brand loyalty, etc.
“I’m right, you’re wrong.”
“No, I’m right, you’re wrong.”
“You suck!”
“No, you suck!”
Design is not a blueprint. Design is a compass in your mind that consistently points in the direction of what works visually. Design is what allows you to make thousands of little decisions about form, line, texture, color, the interplay of positive and negative space, etc. and progressively iterate until you’ve converged upon something sublime.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Heh Heh,
@my nellie ,
here is another one for you. The high end Ateliers and Academies.
don't do galleries.
Sales are through folk seeing their work in Lord x's manor or
Lady y's townhouse in say London.
Or through an agent.
If folk try to treat Bonsai / Dwarfed trees / Tree Penjing as Art.
The rules of Fine Art will come into play more and more,
Does it please or move you?
The head, the heart and the hand.
The Intellect, the emotion and the technique.
You begin to apply these ideas more an more to your trees.
Or you use them to inspire ideas of creativity.
K keeps the tree designs simple, it seems to impact on the viewer
more effectively.
Unfortunately, trees done in reality only image well in slides.
Not the one eye camera, which flattens badly.
The camera has but one eye.
Good Day
Anthony
"3 to 5 years to clear the head, if you can afford to do so."
Bring on the Hollogram
@my nellie ,
here is another one for you. The high end Ateliers and Academies.
don't do galleries.
Sales are through folk seeing their work in Lord x's manor or
Lady y's townhouse in say London.
Or through an agent.
If folk try to treat Bonsai / Dwarfed trees / Tree Penjing as Art.
The rules of Fine Art will come into play more and more,
Does it please or move you?
The head, the heart and the hand.
The Intellect, the emotion and the technique.
You begin to apply these ideas more an more to your trees.
Or you use them to inspire ideas of creativity.
K keeps the tree designs simple, it seems to impact on the viewer
more effectively.
Unfortunately, trees done in reality only image well in slides.
Not the one eye camera, which flattens badly.
The camera has but one eye.
Good Day
Anthony
"3 to 5 years to clear the head, if you can afford to do so."
Bring on the Hollogram
Ah! Now we’re down to it! You’re fighting your trees!
You are right, the key is to work with the tree. What we do in bonsai is do at the micro level what the tree does at the macro level.
A tree at the micro level might put out shoots in all directions. Over time, some of those shoots will grow to find the sun and thrive, some of those shoots will get covered by others and wither and die. This process might take decades to play out in nature. We have to understand how the trees grow to guide the micro to appear to be macro. We have to do this with deliberation, not by chance. You see, with bonsai, we not only “miniature” trees, we simulate compression of time. We seek to achieve in a few years an image that it takes nature decades or centuries to achieve.
Sure, you can let the tree take control. Be prepared to wait.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't know any of you guys personally but I'm glad to have joined such a heartwarming forum.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Talent in Fine Art -------- do you have anything to say'
Of the Old masters -------- what you said still applies, from centuries ago
and is important.
Applied to Bonsai ---------------???????????????????
Hobby - backyard, who cares -- enjoy
In the public ---- other folks thoughts - compliments and abrasions.
Take 10 mature trees of the same type --------- preferably by itself --- e,g field.
Draw or Photo
Extract parts that interest you.
Imagine-Recombind
Now folks ----------- show me your drawings, efforts of your research.
Come on don't be shy.
Good Day
Anthony
Of the Old masters -------- what you said still applies, from centuries ago
and is important.
Applied to Bonsai ---------------???????????????????
Hobby - backyard, who cares -- enjoy
In the public ---- other folks thoughts - compliments and abrasions.
Take 10 mature trees of the same type --------- preferably by itself --- e,g field.
Draw or Photo
Extract parts that interest you.
Imagine-Recombind
Now folks ----------- show me your drawings, efforts of your research.
Come on don't be shy.
Good Day
Anthony
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Sifu,
with Grow and Clip [ Lingnan] the idea is to work with the
tree. It tells you what to do or what it can do.
Harmony.
Tai Chi using Bonsai/ Tree Penjing
Good Day
Anthony
with Grow and Clip [ Lingnan] the idea is to work with the
tree. It tells you what to do or what it can do.
Harmony.
Tai Chi using Bonsai/ Tree Penjing
Good Day
Anthony
Jester217300
Shohin
This is pretty laughable to me. In the past week I had a professional do a demo at our local club and host an open house at our local nursery where he demoed three trees. All for free.
OK, so this isn't working with the pro, right? I then took a private class for $110. There were 5 other people in the class. One person worked on a $10 hinoki from a big box store. That person received as much help as anyone else. And this is in Michigan. I am sure you must have similar opportunities in California, one of the main bonsai hot spots in the US. To frame the situation as "us vs them" where there are people spending thousands vs people spending nothing is not only divisive but 100% factually untrue.
Jester217300
Shohin
You're not better than anyone else in this thread because you've never paid to work with a professional.
