Are you a Parrot?

[Saddler]

You know, there's a case to made for "parroting"....its basically a major building block of civilization, society and language.
If no one ever "parroted" some one else, we'd all be grunting at each other, and probably throwing poo.

Again, missing the distinction. Society was built by doing, not talking about it. Growing up my friends parents had parrots. One of the them knew what ingredients went into bread. “Flour water yeast and salt is what makes my favourite snack. Squak! Can I have some bread?” The parrot would say. I never did hear about it baking a loaf of bread.

 

[M. Frary]

Interesting, because I start to tune out posters when they repeatedly mock other posters and professionals (did you come up with "Ryan Kneel" all on your own? You must be very proud). I don't get it...these guys have devoted their lives to bonsai, spent 6 years on average in an apprenticeship where they worked on more high quality trees than you'll ever see in your life, some (Ryan "Kneel") have horticulture degrees behind them. So what exactly is your problem? People here should be glad that members of Bonsai Mirai (or students of Boon or any other professional) are willing to share things they've paid to learn.

Looks like auto correct.
My phone isn't only smart,it can read my mind. Fortuitous.
I don't have a problem. I'm just not a sheep that follows along blindly.
I do this hobby by myself. I go to one bonsai show per year.
I go to that to see Vance. The trees are secondary.
Maybe I'm not serious about bonsai. I mean since I don't believe in mirai or boon maybe I'm a second rate hack.
All I do know is I do know trees as well as anyone created. My life has been dedicated to trees. Whether working at the landscape nursery/tree farm. Planting jack pines for the forest service. Line clearance. Or logging. I know trees. You don't do these jobs without learning all about trees. In order to kill ot trim a tree one must first know how it grows. Been taught growth rates. Diseases. Transplanting.
I may not have a horticultural degree. But then again I don't really need one. I learned everything I know about trees from hands on application. Not from watching videos. Not from intensives. Not from going to a club.
I'm all by myself here. No time nor desire nor money
to waste on any of those.
I'm not an expert by no means.
I don't profess to know all about bonsai.
But mainly I don't parrot things that I may or may not have heard from someone who thinks they're the shit.
I get it. You guys shucked out all of this money for these videos and intensives. You're going to try to defend your decision.

 

[just.wing.it]

Again, missing the distinction. Society was built by doing, not talking about it. Growing up my friends parents had parrots. One of the them knew what ingredients went into bread. “Flour water yeast and salt is what makes my favourite snack. Squak! Can I have some bread?” The parrot would say. I never did hear about it baking a loaf of bread.

Language being the operative word....
I guess we don't "talk" much anymore, as we type....sad.
But you don't get language without talking.
And you dont build civilizations without language.

Point me.

 

[Saddler]

@coh there are always exceptions to the rules. You tried to answer a question when no better answers were available, and framed it properly.

 

[Saddler]

Language being the operative word....
I guess we don't "talk" much anymore, as we type....sad.
But you don't get language without talking.
And you dont build civilizations without language.

Point me.

Repeating words to learn to speak or write a language is different then doing it for no other reason then you can.
Repeating what others have said while adding nothing of your own does just that, adds nothing. I could argue that it sometimes even takes away by losing some important nuances the original author would provide.

 

[papymandarin]

i really don't see the problem. Some people have knowledge about trees, from their own experience, or work or whatever, other learn in books, internet, workshops, or apprenticeship in japan or elsewhere, they pay or not for it , so what? At some point, whatever the means you used you had to get your information form someone else, unless you consider having reinvented the wheel of bonsai all by yourself in complete isolation from the world (what would be quite arrogant to say the least). i don't think there is a lot of people, who would do all that just to talk about and not in order to do bonsai themselves. But i agree you should mention from where the knowledge came if you did not already experienced it yourself. There is always a lot of sorting to do anyway when gathering information on the net even on a dedicated forum, it would be foolish to jump on your tree to apply something with a single opinion/information source.

 

[just.wing.it]

Repeating words to learn to speak or write a language is different then doing it for no other reason then you can.
Repeating what others have said while adding nothing of your own does just that, adds nothing. I could argue that it sometimes even takes away by losing some important nuances the original author would provide.

Hehe, indeed.
Than and then is a tough one.

Edit....sorry, that was mean...

 

[Saddler]

Hehe, indeed.
Than and then is a tough one.

Edit....sorry, that was mean...

If that is the biggest flaw you can find in my argument, I’ll take it. Thanks for pointing it out, I didn’t notice my incorrect word usage. Better late than never to fix something, right?


SIC was intentional, this time ?

 

[coh]

Looks like auto correct.
My phone isn't only smart,it can read my mind. Fortuitous.
I don't have a problem. I'm just not a sheep that follows along blindly.
I do this hobby by myself. I go to one bonsai show per year.
I go to that to see Vance. The trees are secondary.
Maybe I'm not serious about bonsai. I mean since I don't believe in mirai or boon maybe I'm a second rate hack.
All I do know is I do know trees as well as anyone created. My life has been dedicated to trees. Whether working at the landscape nursery/tree farm. Planting jack pines for the forest service. Line clearance. Or logging. I know trees. You don't do these jobs without learning all about trees. In order to kill ot trim a tree one must first know how it grows. Been taught growth rates. Diseases. Transplanting.
I may not have a horticultural degree. But then again I don't really need one. I learned everything I know about trees from hands on application. Not from watching videos. Not from intensives. Not from going to a club.
I'm all by myself here. No time nor desire nor money
to waste on any of those.
I'm not an expert by no means.
I don't profess to know all about bonsai.
But mainly I don't parrot things that I may or may not have heard from someone who thinks they're the shit.
I get it. You guys shucked out all of this money for these videos and intensives. You're going to try to defend your decision.

Why do you have so much anger in you? No one is calling you a hack because you choose not to spend money learning from bonsai professionals, yet here you are calling those who do "sheep" or "parrots" or "blind". It's very sawgrass-ish.

I don't give a crap about how you do bonsai. In fact, I don't really give a crap what anyone wants to do with their trees in their backyard. But I'm not on the forum putting anyone down because of how they choose to do bonsai. Instead, I (and others) are freely sharing information that we've learned from others. If you don't want to make use of it, fine...no one cares. But you should shut up about it in my opinion as it makes you look petty.

I mean, this is all completely ridiculous.

 

[coh]

Again, missing the distinction. Society was built by doing, not talking about it. Growing up my friends parents had parrots. One of the them knew what ingredients went into bread. “Flour water yeast and salt is what makes my favourite snack. Squak! Can I have some bread?” The parrot would say. I never did hear about it baking a loaf of bread.

So are you saying that if I read one of your posts and have information that could be of value to you, I should only share it if I've done the particular technique myself? It's not good enough for you if several well respected bonsai professionals have given me that information? Because I'll be happy to keep it to myself if that's what you want. There's a feature here that would make it extremely easy.

 

[M. Frary]

sawgrass

I miss him.
He and I get along great.
I'm going to have him do a scroll when it comes time for one.
He would actually be the only one I ask.

 

[Saddler]

So are you saying that if I read one of your posts and have information that could be of value to you, I should only share it if I've done the particular technique myself? It's not good enough for you if several well respected bonsai professionals have given me that information? Because I'll be happy to keep it to myself if that's what you want. There's a feature here that would make it extremely easy.

Why not just post the link to the information? If there is no link or other means to get it from the original source, please refer to post #84 where I agreed with what you did in that situation. I’m not trying to upset you, but if you feel the need to put me on ignore, I won’t argue.

 

[jacob letoile]

Reading this thread, all i can say is that one of my metrics for people is whether they're more bothered by what is said or how its said. If you are more bothered by someone parroting good advice than you are by another person giving crappy first hand advice, your priorites are fucked

 

[wireme]

Reading this thread, all i can say is that one of my metrics for people is whether they're more bothered by what is said or how its said. If you are more bothered by someone parroting good advice than you are by another person giving crappy first hand advice, your priorites are fucked

Ha, good one, quite hilariously put too.

 

[Cadillactaste]

At some point everyone parrots/references their source. One can't tell me that the techniques they all learned didn't come from somewhere. Personally to get tidbits of any information one apprentishiped for in Japan is a golden nugget. It is MIND BOGGLING the cahoonas people have that those one's who spent time and money to learn in Japan...or even from one who is in the states now that learned in Japan. Is worthless...is ridiculous to me. I watched Collin Lewis's wiring technique and it furthered my direction. Why try and fail if one can learn the right way from the start.

Ones have parroted Al's techniques as well with no back lash. One comes to a forum to gather direction and learn...and share. I find this ridiculous. To be jealous of one's who paid and dedicated their lived to a full time career in the hobby. They should be respected...for their knowledge.

I for one...hope all who share from those who paid to learn in Japan continue to do So.

 

[small trees]

I have learned that I don't know anything and that most of my questions were asked before, so I don't post much anymore. I read a lot but I usually don't post. You can't be a parrot if you don't speak!

 

[Cable]

I find it funny that we're essentially being judged for citing sources. Pretend the knowledge is yours and you're good. Acknowledge you learned it from someone else and you're a parrot.

What's even more humorous is that in my other hobby (firearms training) it is the exact opposite. You're admonished for NOT saying where you learned a technique.

 

[Adair M]

Why not just post the link to the information? If there is no link or other means to get it from the original source, please refer to post #84 where I agreed with what you did in that situation. I’m not trying to upset you, but if you feel the need to put me on ignore, I won’t argue.

Sadder, this thread is in response to a tread I posted on Maple Maintence. I posted a link to Peter Tea’s blog that he wrote while he was in Japan during a 3 year bonsai apprenticeship.

For some reason, known only to Smoke, he thinks what I did by posting Peter’s blog is “parroting”.

Smoke knows I primarily work on pines and have a relatively small number of deciduous trees. For some reason, in Smoke’s version of the universe, that disqualifies me from recognizing good technique used on deciduous trees. And it’s Smoke’s opinion that by sharing this information that he thinks I don’t use myself (which I do) I’m a “parrot”.

I have no idea why Smoke has this grudge against me, but his recent posts all seem to be trying to stop me from posting and sharing information I have learned from others. Which is a real shame. I have been doing bonsai for over 40 years, and that gives me a bit of insight into what works, and what doesn’t. Those who are new to bonsai can find all sorts of “information” about bonsai in the Internet. Some of that information is good, some is rubbish. I post what I do to hopefully point people to good information, so that they can avoid the rubbish.

Why Smoke objects to that is known only to him.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I will parrot sometimes if it's good info. I will repeat things that were said to me when I first started. I repeat techniques and rules. I mostly share my experiences. I've never overwatered a willow leaf ficus. Something I read online in the past year- from a reliable source.(Ed or Jerry) I thought back in my brain and I have also never overwatered one either. Of course soil choice plays a huge part in making a statement like that. If it's in standard potting soil then yes it probably could be overwatered.
When teaching anyone anything I usually give a why. Why it's important to do it this way or that way. I always like to know the why and it helps me to remember.

 

[Smoke]

Sadder, this thread is in response to a tread I posted on Maple Maintence. I posted a link to Peter Tea’s blog that he wrote while he was in Japan during a 3 year bonsai apprenticeship.

For some reason, known only to Smoke, he thinks what I did by posting Peter’s blog is “parroting”.

Smoke knows I primarily work on pines and have a relatively small number of deciduous trees. For some reason, in Smoke’s version of the universe, that disqualifies me from recognizing good technique used on deciduous trees. And it’s Smoke’s opinion that by sharing this information that he thinks I don’t use myself (which I do) I’m a “parrot”.

I have no idea why Smoke has this grudge against me, but his recent posts all seem to be trying to stop me from posting and sharing information I have learned from others. Which is a real shame. I have been doing bonsai for over 40 years, and that gives me a bit of insight into what works, and what doesn’t. Those who are new to bonsai can find all sorts of “information” about bonsai in the Internet. Some of that information is good, some is rubbish. I post what I do to hopefully point people to good information, so that they can avoid the rubbish.

Why Smoke objects to that is known only to him.

I am reminded of a song by Carly Simon. You were/are the furthest thing on my mind when I started this. Eyore doesn’t become you. I do bonsai my way, always have. I tell about bonsai, my way always have. I post pictures to back up my claims and even when I learn them from someone else I use them, test them, and share them.

I don’t talk about bonsai professionals much. Mostly because I have never had the privledge to afford one. For me the afford part is not just the ability to pay for the service, it’s everything that comes after that. I don’t feel it’s prudent to spend thousands of dollars to work with a professional and continue working on 30.00 material. Yet I know many that do, and the trees look like it as well

There is one thing I do like about professionals and I have seen most of them in the world in person. They don’t talk about who they learned from or parrot what they learned... they SHOW you what they learned. That’s what I’m talking about.... not you.

A list of who I have worked with, in actual workshops.
Walter Pall
Kunio Kobayashi
Shinji Suzuki
Peter Warren
Ryan Neal
Marco Invernizzi
John Naka
Harry Hirao
And Masahiko Kimura

Not one of them ever made me feel like I was learning second hand information and I felt that what I was learning was tried and true on their own trees. I suspect they felt parroting information wasn’t exactly worth the money they were charging.

Simple as that.