Another Mirai Tree Sale in a few days

[BobbyLane]

Yes, it can take decades. A lot depends on species, climate and know how. I know that trunk chopping a live oak and leaving nothing but a branchless stump takes a very long time to grow a decent leader out, as well as develop decent branching.

Linden is a relatively fast growing tree, as are things like trident maples, bald cypress, and others.

I get that you can SOMETIMES find decent, low priced stuff at nurseries, but what is being offered through the sale ain't common. For instance, Ryan obviously has a "bonsai eye" for stock. That eye takes time and knowledge to acquire. The attributes that eye can see advances the material as well-low branching decent nebari etc. It's not a typical mid-level bonsaiist nursery crawl...the expertise to choose an appropriate piece of stock also figures into the price.

I also went through the video with the cryptomeria. I don't think I hear how much he paid for that tree. It wasn't $20. More like middle $100's or more. Decent mature stock is about that most anywhere. Some, like special JMaples cultivars can be north of $500.

Im definitely not talking about the stuff folks pick up from home depot for $20. Yes, id say $150 to $500 is a good price to pay for substantial nursery material, maybe $500 is pushing it but if it ticks all the boxes. The last box I usually tick is, can it be developed to a level where its worth twice as much or more than I paid for it. which is why I say its an investment, will i get back my outlay if I decide to move it on one day or maybe I can keep it and maybe show it one day
Sure it does take a while to hone your eye, but on mirai all this is being taught, he's drilling it into peoples heads what to look for, thats what theyre subscribing for right, to get the 'know how'

see for me decent nursery material isnt a stump that you have to chop to bare branches and grow out a leader, not when you can find stuff that already has lots of thick branching, sub trunks, good nebari etc those attributes are what Ryan is looking for, otherwise sure it can take a substantial amount of time. its worth paying the extra for raw stock with these attributes.

 

[BobbyLane]

Heck, forget special/rare cultivars. My favorite local nursery wants $399 for a 10' tall standard JM in a 25 gallon pot. Of course, that's intended to be sold as a landscape tree and hasn't been trained one bit. I'd rather spend the $400 on a 24" tall JM that's been trained as a bonsai for several years already. Apples to oranges comparison though, I guess.

Go somewhere else. get in your truck and spend a day visiting nurseries, drive up to 2-3 hours. You can train raw stock yourself. what youre looking for is primary branches, a good trunk, a good nebari and maybe a thick enough branch that cut be turned into a leader, that thick enough branch could also be the one that provides movement for the tree.
if you want something trained then go to a bonsai nursery.

 

[rockm]

All this also depends on what SIZE of tree you're after. Most all the trees coming out of Mirai are not small. Some are, but mame and shohin are the exception. Also, larger nursery stock (over three inches in diameter at soil level) that is worth working is not very common and hard to find, particularly with low branching or movement of any kind.

 

[BobbyLane]

24"? Double your $400 estimate......It's crazy out there! Problem becomes apparent when every "bonsai propagator" sees what Mirai asks and then thinks their material is in the same ballpark......sorry, Ryan's pretty good.....

With how fast Mirai trees go and at premium pricing, well, I always figured he doesn't ask ENOUGH!

The worse thing about that is and ive seen it on some of the bonsai auction pages, in the US and also here, they put these deciduous trees up with a ridiculous starting price and all the pics are of the tree in leaf only, thats just pathetic, really taking the utter piss.

 

[Cajunrider]

Im definitely not talking about the stuff folks pick up from home depot for $20. Yes, id say $150 to $500 is a good price to pay for substantial nursery material, maybe $500 is pushing it but if it ticks all the boxes. The last box I usually tick is, can it be developed to a level where its worth twice as much or more than I paid for it. which is why I say its an investment, will i get back my outlay if I decide to move it on one day or maybe I can keep it and maybe show it one day
Sure it does take a while to hone your eye, but on mirai all this is being taught, he's drilling it into peoples heads what to look for, thats what theyre subscribing for right, to get the 'know how'

see for me decent nursery material isnt a stump that you have to chop to bare branches and grow out a leader, not when you can find stuff that already has lots of thick branching, sub trunks, good nebari etc those attributes are what Ryan is looking for, otherwise sure it can take a substantial amount of time. its worth paying the extra for raw stock with these attributes.

For me nursery material is actual a tree that I have to chop and grow out leader and likely have to develop nebari as well. It isn't pre-bonsai material that has thick branching, subtrunks, good nebari etc.. And you are absolutely right, it is worth paying the extra for raw stock with these attributes.
Once in a blue moon, we may find one tree at the nursery with attributes close to a pre-bonsai but it usually isn't the case. That doesn't mean we shouldn't buy them, it simply means that we should know what we are getting.

Take bald cypress as an example from things that I know. I can go to a nursery or to a big box store and get the following: $30 for 5ft tall 1" trunk, $50 for 7ft tall 1.5" trunk, $100 for 9 ft tall 2" trunk. If they are on clearance, I can get them for half price. Still they are bald cypress with little taper and some have terrible roots that wrap around the pot and around themselves. It will take 3 growing seasons to chop, develop branches, apex, and nebari. How much 3 years of care and development of a tree is worth depends on who we are, the money and time we have, and most importantly what we intend to do. If I am doing it to learn then I would do it. If my intention is to get to a bona-fide BC bonsai in a hurry, that's not the way I go. So I don't go about comparing my $100 BC I just got from Home Depot or a nursery with a $500 pre-bonsai BC from Bonsai South and most definitely not against a $4000 BC bonsai from Mirai. The price differences to me are from time, effort, and knowledge to make it happen.

 

[Shogun610]

The worse thing about that is and ive seen it on some of the bonsai auction pages, in the US and also here, they put these deciduous trees up with a ridiculous starting price and all the pics are of the tree in leaf only, thats just pathetic, really taking the utter piss.

Yup. Very pathetic , takes the piss m8 , bloody bullshit innit

 

[BobbyLane]

For me nursery material is actual a tree that I have to chop and grow out leader and likely have to develop nebari as well. It isn't pre-bonsai material that has thick branching, subtrunks, good nebari etc.. And you are absolutely right, it is worth paying the extra for raw stock with these attributes.
Once in a blue moon, we may find one tree at the nursery with attributes close to a pre-bonsai but it usually isn't the case. That doesn't mean we shouldn't buy them, it simply means that we should know what we are getting.

Take bald cypress as an example from things that I know. I can go to a nursery or to a big box store and get the following: $30 for 5ft tall 1" trunk, $50 for 7ft tall 1.5" trunk, $100 for 9 ft tall 2" trunk. If they are on clearance, I can get them for half price. Still they are bald cypress with little taper and some have terrible roots that wrap around the pot and around themselves. It will take 3 growing seasons to chop, develop branches, apex, and nebari. How much 3 years of care and development of a tree is worth depends on who we are, the money and time we have, and most importantly what we intend to do. If I am doing it to learn then I would do it. If my intention is to get to a bona-fide BC bonsai in a hurry, that's not the way I go. So I don't go about comparing my $100 BC I just got from Home Depot or a nursery with a $500 pre-bonsai BC from Bonsai South and most definitely not against a $4000 BC bonsai from Mirai. The price differences to me are from time, effort, and knowledge to make it happen.

sometimes you have to work with the cards delt. I cant tell you how many hornbeams i find with very good nebari, its almost as if the tree layers itself in the pot. You see this in a lot of nursery trees where the top soil has been kept more moist than the soil below. often you'll find trees send out a new set of roots. some trees are better at doing this than others though. im pretty sure this just doesnt only happen in the UK though. I have actually seen a few of the members on here picking up European hornbeams from nurseries now.
Sometimes if you cant get all of the attributes, you have to make do with whats available and develop the flaws.
I posted a hornbeam yest where the nebari isnt actually that great, but i bought it because it at least had flare and two thick low branches that can transition nicely into two leaders in quick time, but i may leave it in the pot and do a ground layer on it and that would be a first for me, but like i said, it had other qualites i really valued.

 

[Kanorin]

Think about it this way - if you wanted to grow and style and resell trees to make your living...let's do some back of the napkin math.

If you had the space and time to maintain 400 trees and the average price you paid per tree was $200 and on average you could quintuple the value of the tree and sell it in four years (sell for $1000), beginning on your fourth year, you would profit 100k per year (sell 100 trees per year to keep the cycle going)...but we haven't even accounted for costs like utilities, health insurance, tools, supplies, soil, bench construction, other insurance, etc. And the fact that for 3 years you would have to have some other means to earn an income.

Doesn't seem like a super cushy career. Actually it seems quite tough to make that all work out and stay in business. Kudos to the few who have been able to make it work.

 

[BobbyLane]

Think about it this way - if you wanted to grow and style and resell trees to make your living...let's do some back of the napkin math.

If you had the space and time to maintain 400 trees and the average price you paid per tree was $200 and on average you could quintuple the value of the tree and sell it in four years (sell for $1000), beginning on your fourth year, you would profit 100k per year (sell 100 trees per year to keep the cycle going)...but we haven't even accounted for costs like utilities, health insurance, tools, supplies, soil, bench construction, other insurance, etc. And the fact that for 3 years you would have to have some other means to earn an income.

Doesn't seem like a super cushy career. Actually it seems quite tough to make that all work out and stay in business. Kudos to the few who have been able to make it work.

It can be a good stream of income if you have other streams of income on the go.

 

[leatherback]

Here's a link to the Insta reel...

Mirai on Instagram: "Design montage. Endless hours of consideration, care, and maintenance are poured into these living, breathing works of art. One of these world-class bonsai trees can be yours with our annual tree sale that starts next week (9/1

3,428 likes, 36 comments - bonsaimirai on August 25, 2022: "Design montage. Endless hours of consideration, care, and maintenance are poured into these living, breathing works of art. One of these world-class bonsai trees can be yours with our annual tree sale that starts next week (9/1)...

www.instagram.com

Yes, the trees are rough (ish), probably why they're selling them. Yes, they're expensive, but they're also priced for similar collected large material that's been styled by a professional.

Lol.. If these are rough trees, I would say most people on this forum only have unstyled trees. What I can see from the reel .. These trees each have their own personality. One can only hope someone with a decent set of skills gets them, and/or they are smart enough to get guidance in maintenance.

 

[Sansokuu]

It can be a good stream of income if you have other streams of income on the go.

A friend of mine once looked at the Mirai workshops to see how much they cost -;he told me he just laughed when he saw the price, there was no way he could remotely afford it.

 

[leatherback]

sometimes you have to work with the cards delt. I cant tell you how many hornbeams i find with very good nebari, its almost as if the tree layers itself in the pot. You see this in a lot of nursery trees where the top soil has been kept more moist than the soil below. often you'll find trees send out a new set of roots. some trees are better at doing this than others though. im pretty sure this just doesnt only happen in the UK though. I have actually seen a few of the members on here picking up European hornbeams from nurseries now.
Sometimes if you cant get all of the attributes, you have to make do with whats available and develop the flaws.
I posted a hornbeam yest where the nebari isnt actually that great, but i bought it because it at least had flare and two thick low branches that can transition nicely into two leaders in quick time, but i may leave it in the pot and do a ground layer on it and that would be a first for me, but like i said, it had other qualites i really valued.

I am going to venture a guess that throughput in the UK is much lower than nurseries here. Most nurseries are pretty much empty by the end of season here. I have been unable to find nurseries here that sell the sort of trees that you have been showing, and I have been to dozens of nurseries the last years. I had one, but them went bankrupt some 7 years ago.

Mass produced, high throughput, that is what our nurseries here operate on.
No way I am getting anything near what Ryan is selling here in a nursery. Just no comparison.

 

[BobbyLane]

A friend of mine once looked at the Mirai workshops to see how much they cost -;he told me he just laughed when he saw the price, there was no way he could remotely afford it.

I dont think theres anyone on here who does the mirai workshops. be interesting to see what theyre working on.
I rarely see any posts on here either, where someone said they were inspired by one of the mirai streams, 'so tried this' for example....

 

[BobbyLane]

I am going to venture a guess that throughput in the UK is much lower than nurseries here. Most nurseries are pretty much empty by the end of season here. I have been unable to find nurseries here that sell the sort of trees that you have been showing, and I have been to dozens of nurseries the last years. I had one, but them went bankrupt some 7 years ago.

Mass produced, high throughput, that is what our nurseries here operate on.
No way I am getting anything near what Ryan is selling here in a nursery. Just no comparison.

Ive seen you with some cool bits, but you dont show your stuff much.

 

[IzzyG]

You can absolutely purchase raw material from the more known suppliers; Randy, Todd, Back Country, etc. but you’ll likely not get the first crack at their stock. It’s been mentioned that Ryan usually gets first dibs on Randy’s materials and Randy also doesn’t ship. Todd, being the exceptionally nice person he is, does open availability to some raw material to students(especially when you are attending his workshops). However, his collections are almost exclusively for his own use(students, development, etc.).

I’m interested to see what trees go up for sale this year. This year was also the first time they’ve sold trees year round(I had purchased 2 of them a couple months back). You just have to look through their gallery under “available for purchase”.

 

[AcerAddict]

Go somewhere else. get in your truck and spend a day visiting nurseries, drive up to 2-3 hours. You can train raw stock yourself. what youre looking for is primary branches, a good trunk, a good nebari and maybe a thick enough branch that cut be turned into a leader, that thick enough branch could also be the one that provides movement for the tree.
if you want something trained then go to a bonsai nursery.

Oh, I was just mentioning what standard JMs cost near me to add to the conversation. My plate is pretty full with raw nursery stuff, and I'm much more discerning of a shopper as of late. Last summer, I went crazy and visited a nursery/Lowe's/Home Depot looking for potential bonsai material at least 12 times over 3 months, and bought something literally every single trip. This year, I've bought three raw plants. That's all. The rest of my time has been spent maintaining what I already have, and putting the stuff that I'll realistically never develop as bonsai (most of my "impulse buys" from last year) into either a pot or the ground. Last summer, I had 30 nursery pots in our backyard related to bonsai. As I type this, there's now less than 12. Going forward, I'm spending my money on much better developed material.

 

[Shogun610]

You can absolutely purchase raw material from the more known suppliers; Randy, Todd, Back Country, etc. but you’ll likely not get the first crack at their stock. It’s been mentioned that Ryan usually gets first dibs on Randy’s materials and Randy also doesn’t ship. Todd, being the exceptionally nice person he is, does open availability to some raw material to students(especially when you are attending his workshops). However, his collections are almost exclusively for his own use(students, development, etc.).

I’m interested to see what trees go up for sale this year. This year was also the first time they’ve sold trees year round(I had purchased 2 of them a couple months back). You just have to look through their gallery under “available for purchase”.

You don’t need a 1,000 ceiling to break through to get good material, bonsai , exposure , and opportunity to work w them.I have met Todd , his material is way more accessible. It’s also knowing how to properly care for those trees, especially trees with provenance once purchased , btw how’s that Hirao/ Naka California juniper doing that you posted.

 

[leatherback]

but you dont show your stuff much.

Strange comment. And untrue, sorry

 

[rockm]

Got a reminder yesterday that the sale starts at 3 pm eastern 12 pacific. It included a link to "shop trees" but the link leads to nothing at this point. Will be populated this afternoon, presumably

 

[Srt8madness]

You don’t need a 1,000 ceiling to break through to get good material, bonsai , exposure , and opportunity to work w them.I have met Todd , his material is way more accessible. It’s also knowing how to properly care for those trees, especially trees with provenance once purchased , btw how’s that Hirao/ Naka California juniper doing that you posted.

Brussels has some decent pines for half that right now.