About wiring.

[Adair M]

Not really up for hashing this out, and people are totally free to use any technique they like to shape, but for those flipping out about the heresy of non-wiring and claiming they need photographic evidence I have one valuable search term for you - lingnan penjing. seriously who gives a flip? in any case, we should probably all have one fully wired tree and one fully clip and grow so we best understand why application of either technique will help, hinder, or produce similar results. ...and congrats to vance for improving his skills!

Actually, MichaelS, I don't like either of your two examples. You may love them. That's fine.

Some people like vanilla ice cream. Some like chocolate. It's silly for the vanilla people to say to the chocolate lovers that in the future no one will like chocolate because vanilla is better.

My tree is a Formal Upright. They're deceptively difficult to do well. You don't see very many good ones. Oh sure, there's definite "rules" that define a Formal Upright. Rules that are hard to follow! That, for me, is the challenge. It's not just to to have a tree in a pot. It's the ongoing challenge of creating a tree that conforms to a very strict set of rules, and keep it healthy and continuously conforming to those rules.

Let's not turn this thread into a "To Wire or Not to Wire" thread. This is a thread for those who want to learn how to wire, and wire better. You want to debate whether to wire or not, start your own thread.

 

[Solange]

Actually, MichaelS, I don't like either of your two examples. You may love them. That's fine.

Some people like vanilla ice cream. Some like chocolate. It's silly for the vanilla people to say to the chocolate lovers that in the future no one will like chocolate because vanilla is better.

My tree is a Formal Upright. They're deceptively difficult to do well. You don't see very many good ones. Oh sure, there's definite "rules" that define a Formal Upright. Rules that are hard to follow! That, for me, is the challenge. It's not just to to have a tree in a pot. It's the ongoing challenge of creating a tree that conforms to a very strict set of rules, and keep it healthy and continuously conforming to those rules.

Let's not turn this thread into a "To Wire or Not to Wire" thread. This is a thread for those who want to learn how to wire, and wire better. You want to debate whether to wire or not, start your own thread.

You quoted me here, not Michael. It's strange that you say this thread is about learning to wire. I thought it was just a simple and elegant public thank you to you from Vance for pushing him to wire better. Which is a pretty stand up thing for him to do!

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

We can't grow formal upright without wiring. When you have a tree with a good basic structure i believe you can do it without wiring. So i do like the examples of Michael. For most of the material you will just end up with crap when you don't wire (once in a while). For old trees we set the branches, let them fix and we try to let it grow a year without wire before a show to show them without wire. If we see it will not work (growing to fast or branches not fixated) we wire everything. You need to know how to wire and fixate branches, you need to know when the tree is ready for skipping a wiring job. Some like their trees wired all the time and that is good too. Lets enjoy trees here. We can all learn things form each other, why do we have to be right or wrong?

 

[Vance Wood]

I get it man. You like to wire. Wiring is a skill you, and I, value. Wiring is important for most people for the development of pines. I know you are a pine guy. I know penjing is not bonsai. I know you like to categorize things within your sphere of acceptable, we all do. You practice what you refer to as classical bonsai. No one is trying to tear down the perfect garden of definitions and constrictions you have placed on yourself, and I understand you are not going to change your ideology. I don't want you to. But I hope we can agree that clip and grow is a valid technique as well as wiring, and that, like bonsai, penjing are mostly just little trees in pots.

Well it seems that we have all decided to droop drawers and flatulate at each other holding lit matches again.

You can believe what you want and until you can get a tree into the National show without the use of wire at one point or another your ideas are nothing more than ideas. However; you can accomplish great things by melding the two techniques. There are things you cannot accomplish with wire alone, many of the harsh angular elements can only be accomplished well by Clip and grow. Clip and grow does not allow you to make some of the very subtle soft curves that wire will afford you.

As to the two examples Mark put up I have looked at them seriously and both of could be improved to world class level with the use of wire. As of now they look like collected trees and nothing much more, beautiful as they are. I have had trees that I allowed to grow out only clipping off growth that is threatening to run away and steal any hope for a bonsai simply because I as yet could not grasp a design in my mind for the tree. Then I throw wire on it and bring out the bonsai design hiding in the bush.

 

[Bolero]

MichaelS said
These trees have more soul than a hundred modern pines or spruces put together. It's just that some don't see it.

I agree and think they are beautiful examples of the trees (Juniper ?) as they were growing in a natural State as if on a Mountain in Japan or China..
I also agree with Vance that they could be Transformed with some judicious wiring but then they would become just another Manipulated Bonsai and that seems to be the expected Standard for Bonsai Gardeners...
I applaud Michael for his examples shown here...

Solange said:
Furthermore... I am free to judge bonsai by any standard I like. As are you. As is everyone else.
A lot of Truth here...However most all Shows and or Exhibits are Judged, if Judged, by a set of Rules, Norms, Classic Standards...BWTM...FWIW...

Staying on Topic I think Wiring is Essential for producing Classic Bonsai especially Conifer....

 

[Adair M]

Here's a new post by my friend Jonas from his blog BonsaiTonight;

https://bonsaitonight.com/2017/01/03/tips-anchoring-bonsai-wire/

 

[MichaelS]

Vance Wood,

As to the two examples Mark put up I have looked at them seriously and both of could be improved to world class level with the use of wire.

Well I often here this ''World Class'' tag. What does it mean? Who gets to decide what it means? Why should they be given credence over anyone else? Same for the word ''improved''.

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M, post: 414130, member: 13405"

Actually, MichaelS, I don't like either of your two examples.

Not yet

Let's not turn this thread into a "To Wire or Not to Wire" thread. This is a thread for those who want to learn how to wire, and wire better.

The first line of the thread.....

''Outside of understanding artistic principles and the horticultural needs of a particular tree there is nothing more important in bonsai than wiring''

There are two sides to consider. Technique is one of them. Application of that technique is the other.

 

[wireme]

No wiring......at least no evidence of it. This is the past and the way of the future. These trees have more soul than a hundred modern pines or spruces put together. It's just that some don't see it.

I'm glad you're here to encourage appreciation of trees like this!
If you do start a thread I'd probably have more to say..
The horticulture of these is intriguing too, I'm only guessing from the pics but they look like they are continuing with remarkably stunted growth yet are healthy enough.

 

[MichaelS]

"Bolero, post: 414174, member: 18063"

I also agree with Vance that they could be Transformed with some judicious wiring but then they would become just another Manipulated Bonsai and that seems to be the expected Standard for Bonsai Gardeners...

Oh so very true! Thanks Bolero for ''getting it''. The appreciation of nature through bonsai has been distorted and now we accept that distortion as the norm and frown on the real thing. Bizarre! (but understandable given human ways)

I'm certainly not saying we should all throw our wire away, just that it's worth keeping our feet on the forest floor. Not for the ''art'' but for our own ultimate pleasure.

 

[MichaelS]

I'm glad you're here to encourage appreciation of trees like this!
If you do start a thread I'd probably have more to say..
The horticulture of these is intriguing too, I'm only guessing from the pics but they look like they are continuing with remarkably stunted growth yet are healthy enough.

These trees are from Kyuka-en which was run my Kyuzo Murata who has since died and the trees are probably now neglected a bit? But if you look at his other work, he seemed to be particular in avoiding too much artificial manipulation of the trees very deliberately. And mind you, this guy actually invented some of the tools we all use today. His was the first book I bought and I still find it refreshing and relaxing looking at his work.
You can start the thread and I'll join in

 

[Adair M]

Oh so very true! Thanks Bolero for ''getting it''. The appreciation of nature through bonsai has been distorted and now we accept that distortion as the norm and frown on the real thing. Bizarre! (but understandable given human ways)

I'm certainly not saying we should all throw our wire away, just that it's worth keeping our feet on the forest floor. Not for the ''art'' but for our own ultimate pleasure.

Michael, on virtually every thread you participate in, you change the topic into how the Japanese have been doing bonsai wrong.

Bonsai IS a Japanese art.

Your posts are comparable to me saying that you Aussies don't know how to play Australian Rules Football!

Bonsai depict an idealized vision of what trees should look like. In miniature. Not necessarily what they actually DO look like.

Just as Supermodels wear makeup, we style trees to enhance their beauty.

Short story:

I once rode in an elevator with Elle McPherson when she was at the height of her career. She was not wearing makeup and was wearing ordinary clothes. If I hadn't known it was Elle, I wouldn't have recognized her.

 

[Jeremy]

This actually is a very interesting idea worth discussing, I encourage @MichaelS or anyone else to begin a new thread. We've all heard people quoting John Naka in regards to making a bonsai look like a tree, but those same people don't necessarily practice what they preach. I like the examples Michael provided, they do show ruggedness and soul. At the same time, I feel a bit of wire here and there could transform them, but that is through a mental image of what bonsai 'should be'. You can look at these images and say they look old and naturalistic, a perfect representation of how they grow in a specific micro-climate. Able to evoke emotions through the viewer, specifically if they have been to areas with similar mature trees. Or you can look at them as pre-bonsai, unrefined and messy/chaotic. THAT is the true essence of this artform, there is no right or wrong, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Trees should be judged on their features, not how perfect they are.

 

[Bolero]

Michael, on virtually every thread you participate in, you change the topic into how the Japanese have been doing bonsai wrong.

Bonsai IS a Japanese art.

Your posts are comparable to me saying that you Aussies don't know how to play Australian Rules Football!

Bonsai depict an idealized vision of what trees should look like. In miniature. Not necessarily what they actually DO look like.

Just as Supermodels wear makeup, we style trees to enhance their beauty.

Short story:

I once rode in an elevator with Elle McPherson when she was at the height of her career. She was not wearing makeup and was wearing ordinary clothes. If I hadn't known it was Elle, I wouldn't have recognized her.

This is an excellent description of the Chinese originated Art Form known today as Bonsai...

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/origin/bonsai-history

 

[markyscott]

These trees are from Kyuka-en which was run my Kyuzo Murata who has since died and the trees are probably now neglected a bit? But if you look at his other work, he seemed to be particular in avoiding too much artificial manipulation of the trees very deliberately. And mind you, this guy actually invented some of the tools we all use today. His was the first book I bought and I still find it refreshing and relaxing looking at his work.
You can start the thread and I'll join in

The "Four Seasons of Bonsai" is one of my favorite books. Some classical bonsai as well as a very creative use some unusual material. I liked them all.

Scott

 

[Bolero]

These trees are from Kyuka-en which was run my Kyuzo Murata who has since died and the trees are probably now neglected a bit? But if you look at his other work, he seemed to be particular in avoiding too much artificial manipulation of the trees very deliberately. And mind you, this guy actually invented some of the tools we all use today. His was the first book I bought and I still find it refreshing and relaxing looking at his work.
You can start the thread and I'll join in [/QUOTE

Your 2 Examples from Murata's Kyuka-en are Historic because of Murata's prodigious life and his efforts towards Bonsai...
http://www.users.qwest.net/~rjbphx/KMurata.html

Murata believed in Wiring and Pruning/Cutting but only to a very minimum extent.....

 

[Adair M]

This is an excellent description of the Chinese originated Art Form known today as Bonsai...

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/origin/bonsai-history

Bolero, I am well aware that collection dwarf trees from the mountains began in China. The Japanese copied the Chinese, then enhanced the art with their attention to detail, and elevated the art form. And developed a different style. "Bonsai". Chinese miniature trees tend to have a different look. "Penjing".

 

[chicago1980]

Any other tips or tricks about wiring a Bonsai tree?

 

[Anthony]

If one takes inspiration from Nature and Memories, the Design of the trees will change from
place to place.

Sometimes Wire, sometimes Grow and Clip, the Design decides what you need.

China is so large that they could care less about other folk's Designs, and the Japanese
like stylised shapes.
On our side we follow our trees and I expect others will do so in their countries.

We can pick and choose what we prefer.

Some trees keep wire scars for a long time and look ugly.
Some trees handle wiring very well.

The pain being expressed comes from hidden Agendas, and personal fears/limitations.

Murata produced beautiful work, less of a bush and more of a tree.
Have quite a few books by the Muratas.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Any other tips or tricks about wiring a Bonsai tree?

Here's one:

http://bonsaibark.com/2016/12/10/two-simple-tricks-with-bonsai-wire/