About wiring.

[just.wing.it]

Well for me I finally annealed some wire for the first time. Wow... didn't think it was really needed before. Overrated I figured... LOL Still learning!

Ha!
Me too, I did a few little rolls of 10g copper the other day, for the first time...
can't wait to use it!

 

[Dav4]

Hell Vance,

Excuse my lack of knowning on the topic. I have only seen nursery stock tree which often is grow from Bonsai. These usually have a lot of branches to select for placement.

I often hear that collected material needs wiring because of the lack of branch placement.

Am I mistaken or lacking in knowledge.

Thank you.

The tree in the pictures I posted is a centuries old collected rocky mountain juniper... it takes a crap load of wire to get it into shape. I also have a large JBP, probably 30-40 years old and likely grown out from a seedling. Guess what.... it also takes a crap load of wire to get it into shape.

 

[Adair M]

MichaelS has his own opinions about things. I'm not saying he's wrong, but his opinions are shared by a minority of bonsai practioners.

It was the "invention" of wiring that really made bonsai an art. In fact, I know of no other horticultural practice that uses it.

You can use "clip and grow" to a certain extent. The Chinese perhaps use it more than the Japanese. But a tree styled exclusively with clip and grow tends to be more angular. Wire allows the artist to put in subtle curves.

Wire is a tool. Just like pruning shears and concave cutters.

Wire, when it's done right, is hardly noticeable.

There is a myth that trees when shown, should be shown without wire. Like everything with bonsai, "it depends". Generally, conifers can be shown with wire. The green foliage hides most of it. I have heard some judges say they will accept copper wire on a conifer, but not aluminum. Aluminum is more obvious. Also, trees should not be shown if the trunks have wire. Even if the wire isn't bending the trunk itself, just acting as an anchor. So, to wire a tree for show, the artist needs to figure out ways to run the wire across the back of the trunk rather than the front. That is acceptable.

Generally, deciduous trees are shown without wire. The big shows in Japan are during the winter, and deciduous trees are appreciated for their branch structure. Since they're bare when shown, wire would be too obvious.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hell Vance,

Excuse my lack of knowning on the topic. I have only seen nursery stock tree which often is grow from Bonsai. These usually have a lot of branches to select for placement.

I often hear that collected material needs wiring because of the lack of branch placement.

Am I mistaken or lacking in knowledge.

Thank you.

Both. You should have taken time to attend the National Show in NY. That would open your eyes. It is true however that you can suffer from an abundance of branches on Nursery trees but that is not always the case. Even so those branches have to be trained. You can learn how to prune and trim and pinch an clip but in the end if you can't wire, the best you can hope to accomplish is having trees that look like someone has tried to make a bonsai out of them by cutting off a bunch of branches. Wiring techniques impart the elements that we associate with age.

 

[iant]

Vance,
Thank you for posting this. (and to Adair as well.) It reminds me that this is a skill that I've been neglecting (or half-a$$ing,) for a while. I'm going to give wiring more attention.
Ian

 

[Anthony]

Enjoying the read.

Sifu, the idea behind grow and clip, is the tree with time will soften those angles and
it ends up very natural.

I guess it is a case of speed of growth where the cambium is concerned.

Back to wiring and thank you Vance.
Good Year
Anthony

 

[aml1014]

Enjoying the read.

Sifu, the idea behind grow and clip, is the tree with time will soften those angles and
it ends up very natural.

I guess it is a case of speed of growth where the cambium is concerned.

Back to wiring and thank you Vance.
Good Year
Anthony

I can see how clip and grow is more natural with time, since many trees in nature self prune themselve. Wire is definitely needed for people in climates like mine. There are very few species that will grow throughout the growing season, most will have 2 maybe 3 flushes of growth. I feel the clip and grow would work best for people in more mild climates like Oregon, or sub tropical climates like Florida, and its especially good for absolute tropical locations where the trees are growing most if not all year long.

Aaron

 

[Dav4]

I didn't realize it when I became enamored with the hobby 20 years ago, but the images of the beautiful trees I fell in love with back then are absolutely not even remotely achievable without routine applications of wire. There are SOME trees primarily designed via clip and grow that might float my boat, but they are few and far between, and I would hazard a guess that even they saw some wire at an early point in their development.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you go back and read through all of the literature that has become available over the years you start to gather a clear opinion that we are in the process today of melding together two separate schools of thought on how trees should be/could be manipulated to make a good bonsai. The old Chines School used only Clip and grow. Study this style/technique and it can produce some really spectacular results. The Japanese used wire and this too produced some really solid and spectacular results. It seems at some point if you were a follower of bonsai and an amateur enthusiast you were required to choose one or the other but God help you if you chose both. The wrath of the elite would descend upon you like the plagues of Egypt. Kind of like the argument about Copper and Aluminum. What is really important is whether or not something works, and the finer point is whether the combination of both compliments the overall desire to make batter bonsai.

 

[Bolero]

Vance says:
What is really important is whether or not something works, and the finer point is whether the combination of both compliments the overall desire to make batter bonsai.

Now there's a Mouthful of excellent comment and so very True...

Actually getting in and trying to determine What is a "Better Bonsai" is also a Mouthful....

I buy PreBonsai Conifer's that already have some trunk movement, Shimpaku, Procumbens, Etc.....
but lack Bonsai look Branch and Foilage Definition...
This is where "Better Bonsai" comes into play for me and this is where Pruning and Wiring are so essential for IMO a "Better Bonsai".......and I firmly believe that a "Better Bonsai" is Different and Varies from Gardener to Gardner while still admiring the Classics and trying to Emulate same...

I'm going to try Mountain Swiss or Mugo this year 2017.

I'm using Wire on some Japanese Maples but it is an entirely different exercise from Conifer's.

Thank you Vance for your continuing advice and comment on Bonsai Gardening...

 

[Eric Group]

*Scissor work is far more important than wiring.
*There is way too much wiring going on.
*Most wiring jobs end up cloning trees.
*Wiring is a bit of a curse to bonsai craft.
*Wiring into a fan shape is superficial crap.
*

Please then this should be easy: Show a picture of one good Bonsai tree that was not wired.

 

[sorce]

@MACH5

Where do you get your aluminum?
I noticed the green.
Is it to blend with the maple branches?

Beautiful!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

@MichaelS,

How is using scissors, or cutters, or a saw to simulate limbs breaking off any different than using wire to simulate the effects of gravity and weight of leaves and snow?

Taken to its extreme, you can't "clip". You would have to rip branches off by hand.

 

[MACH5]

@MACH5

Where do you get your aluminum?
I noticed the green.
Is it to blend with the maple branches?

Beautiful!

Sorce

Sorce, it is wire wrapped in floral tape but not for aesthetic reasons. It helps prevent damage to the bark on deciduous trees and buys you a bit more time before it bites in. There are some that come in brown color. Not recommended since it blends in too much and makes it more difficult to spot later on until it is too late. I use it only on heavier gage wire.

 

[Vance Wood]

@MichaelS,

How is using scissors, or cutters, or a saw to simulate limbs breaking off any different than using wire to simulate the effects of gravity and weight of leaves and snow?

Taken to its extreme, you can't "clip". You would have to rip branches off by hand.

That's true, but the point is there are so many that are still at the point where they are hesitant to do something, anything, or nothing passed on the response of an other person. You would have to rip branches off by hand. This is an idea worth investigating. The practice of tearing branches and peeling down the mass of a branch or something else, is a standard practice. In my mind the point should be, can I imagine a reason for doing something even if I cannot find a reference of it having been done before? In my mind the answer is yes. When people first started doing bonsai (if my research is correct probably as early as the 7th Century)wire was in itself a very rare and misunderstood commodity. Someone with a tree from the mountains with a bit of artistic sensibility must have looked at his potted tree one day and convinced himself that putting wire on a branch to make it go somewhere he thought it would look nice might be a good idea. Seems that it was.

 

[Adair M]

Sorce, it is wire wrapped in floral tape but not for aesthetic reasons. It helps prevent damage to the bark on deciduous trees and buys you a bit more time before it bites in. There are some that come in brown color. Not recommended since it blends in too much and makes it more difficult to spot later on until it is too late. I use it only on heavier gage wire.

Mach, it's my experience that thin wire cuts in faster than thick wire. (Of course, it's not the wire "cutting in", it's the branch thickening around the wire).

So, do you check the wire often and remove/replace the thin wire more often than the thick?

I know you mostly do deciduous...

 

[Adair M]

That's true, but the point is there are so many that are still at the point where they are hesitant to do something, anything, or nothing passed on the response of an other person. You would have to rip branches off by hand. This is an idea worth investigating. The practice of tearing branches and peeling down the mass of a branch or something else, is a standard practice. In my mind the point should be, can I imagine a reason for doing something even if I cannot find a reference of it having been done before? In my mind the answer is yes. When people first started doing bonsai (if my research is correct probably as early as the 7th Century)wire was in itself a very rare and misunderstood commodity. Someone with a tree from the mountains with a bit of artistic sensibility must have looked at his potted tree one day and convinced himself that putting wire on a branch to make it go somewhere he thought it would look nice might be a good idea. Seems that it was.

Some of my first bonsai books had illustrations of rocks being tied to branches to weigh them down. Also, guy wires (probably string) tied to stakes in the ground to pull branches down. More than likely that's how training began.

I don't know if it was the Chinese or Japanese who first started using wire to train trees. I bet Wm. M. Valavanis would know!

Of course, the Japanese learned about bonsai from the Chinese. And then copied it and perfected it. (They're good at that! Lol!!!)

 

[Adair M]

Please then this should be easy: Show a picture of one good Bonsai tree that was not wired.

There are some nice bonsai developed using only clip and grow. Usually deciduous. It's very difficult to train conifers without using wire.

 

[MACH5]

Mach, it's my experience that thin wire cuts in faster than thick wire. (Of course, it's not the wire "cutting in", it's the branch thickening around the wire).

So, do you check the wire often and remove/replace the thin wire more often than the thick?

I know you mostly do deciduous...

Yes this is very true but when working with heavier gages it is much easier to damage the bark specially when you use any significant torque. Also it buys me a little more time since the thicker branches take longer to set. Sometimes I do have to replace but for the most part by June/July when I remove the wire, the thinner branches are set.

 

[Eric Group]

There are some nice bonsai developed using only clip and grow. Usually deciduous. It's very difficult to train conifers without using wire.

Even most those developed by clip and grow were wired at some point though... anything other than just a basic broom style is tough to do without wiring at least the basic branch structure. Most informal uprights, generally any cascade, windswept... all those can be refined and enveloped by clip and grow... once wire sets the branches in place... most standard brooms are even wired or at least wrapped when starting out to get the branches growing in the right direction...