About wiring.

[Bolero]

I admire the Work of Vance Wood, Go to Yahoo Search and enter Vance Wood Bonsai then Images.....

Because he does not,IMO, conform to the Classical Norms of Bonsai in as much as copying Style's from book's and Magazines ...
He apparently looks at and sees a tree looking a certain way and then Re-arranges and creates, thru Pruning and Wiring to arrive at that Vision, and he does it very well and convincingly.
I think he sees them growing wild in the mountains and then creates...

 

[Vance Wood]

That's very kind of you. It has taken me years to get to that point where I believe I have my own bonsai identity. It's not that I purpousely set out to do what I do it has just kine of evolved over the years. Thanks for getting it---maybe we are both dellusional? At least we are not alone. You're right about the mountains. My vision of bonsai has always been in the high places.

 

[mattspinniken]

I admire the Work of Vance Wood

As do I Bolero. Take a look at the Grand Rapids spring show in May (hopefully Vance will show again) his trees are beautiful in pictures but even better in person.

 

[Bolero]

As do I Bolero. Take a look at the Grand Rapids spring show in May (hopefully Vance will show again) his trees are beautiful in pictures but even better in person.

I plan on being there...

 

[Adair M]

I just re-read thru the thread, and it would appear that I am anti-clip and grow as a bonsai technique. No so. Especially with deciduous, it's very important to use clip and grow. Along with wire!

So... why do we have to wire anyway? One answer might be "To put branches where we want them". Ok, that begs the question, Why aren't the branches where we want them?

Ah! Herein lies the the whole issue... what are we trying to achieve? Are we trying to replicate nature? Are we trying to present images of "perfect trees"? Imperfect trees?

It's generally accepted that we want bonsai to look like an old tree. Why? What's wrong with young trees? Because they don't have as much character?

I dunno. But, I think that most everyone would agree that we want our bonsai to look old, even if they're not. So, what makes a tree look old? Mature bark is one thing. And generally speaking, drooping branches is another. Young trees have branches reaching up to the sky. Old trees limbs droop and hang due the weight of snows, and leaves, and the sheer weight of their own wood. Young trees don't have as many leaves, have less wood, have experienced fewer snows, winds, etc.

And our bonsai, being tiny, the weight of the leaves and wood in the branch just isn't enough to make the branches droop on their own. So we use wire to simulate the effect of years and years of exposure to the elements. Clip and grow, too. Branches break, regrow.

All we are trying to do with our wire and scissors is to simulate decades of weather.

 

[Underdog]

Old trees limbs droop and hang due the weight of snows, and leaves, and the sheer weight of their own wood. Young trees don't have as many leaves, have less wood, have experienced fewer snows, winds, etc.

Why is it that guy wires seem to be frowned upon (much easier) and would seem to replicate this aging effect of weight? Did I answer my own question?
I understand the twists and pulling foliage back into the trunk when needed but in general guy wires are too easy to open up the crown and get branches going the direction you want.
They just aren't cool... why?
Enjoying the thread BTW

 

[Vance Wood]

Why is it that guy wires seem to be frowned upon (much easier) and would seem to replicate this aging effect of weight? Did I answer my own question?
I understand the twists and pulling foliage back into the trunk when needed but in general guy wires are too easy to open up the crown and get branches going the direction you want.
They just aren't cool... why?
Enjoying the thread BTW

I don't think guy wires are uncool if they are done right and not to obviously over-used. Ryan Neil uses them. Sometimes it is the only way to get some types of branches to do what you want them to do. Of course here is the bottom line: If it works how can you possibly say it's not right? We had once one of the New School masters come by and critique a show. He poo pooed a Spruce that had guy wires on it but yet his best bud seems to use them extensively.

 

[Adair M]

Well, guy wires are good for bending heavy branches down, putting big bends, etc. They are often mid-used. A guywire pulling down from the end of a branch can result in a "rainbow" branch. When what is needed is a branch that moves down directly off the trunk. (Tie a piece of rebar to the branch, and then pull the rebar down with a guy wire.)

But the main thing is guy wire can only move a branch in one direction. Usually down.

Traditional spiral wiring can do that and much more. Sure it can bend a branch down, but it can also put wiggles left and right in that branch. (Conversely, if a branch has too much wiggle, wire can help straighten it out. Probably can't do that with guy wire.)

Traditional spiral wiring is much more precise than guy wiring. You can't do fine wiring using guy wires.

Cool thing about wire is you can make adjustments and changes. Want to move a branch a little to the left? No problem. If it were guy wired? You would have to find a new place to attach the wire. And you might move the whole branch, not just one twig by pulling with a guy wire.

Here's the deal: if the bend you're trying to make won't hold using traditional wire, then add a guy.

 

[Djtommy]

I don't think guy wires are uncool if they are done right and not to obviously over-used. Ryan Neil uses them. Sometimes it is the only way to get some types of branches to do what you want them to do. Of course here is the bottom line: If it works how can you possibly say it's not right? We had once one of the New School masters come by and critique a show. He poo pooed a Spruce that had guy wires on it but yet his best bud seems to use them extensively.

perhaps he wss misunderstood?
every pro uses guy wires, however only when needed and when its used it should be done proper for all the same reasons as proper wiring.

and bonsai being a visual art and the fact that most guywires stay on for quite some time why not make it look proper.

 

[Adair M]

perhaps he wss misunderstood?
every pro uses guy wires, however only when needed and when its used it should be done proper for all the same reasons as proper wiring.

and bonsai being a visual art and the fact that most guywires stay on for quite some time why not make it look proper.

Guy wires are generally not appropriate for "show trees". That is, if the tree has guywires, it's not yet ready to be shown.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, guy wires are good for bending heavy branches down, putting big bends, etc. They are often mid-used. A guywire pulling down from the end of a branch can result in a "rainbow" branch. When what is needed is a branch that moves down directly off the trunk. (Tie a piece of rebar to the branch, and then pull the rebar down with a guy wire.)

But the main thing is guy wire can only move a branch in one direction. Usually down.

Traditional spiral wiring can do that and much more. Sure it can bend a branch down, but it can also put wiggles left and right in that branch. (Conversely, if a branch has too much wiggle, wire can help straighten it out. Probably can't do that with guy wire.)

Traditional spiral wiring is much more precise than guy wiring. You can't do fine wiring using guy wires.

Cool thing about wire is you can make adjustments and changes. Want to move a branch a little to the left? No problem. If it were guy wired? You would have to find a new place to attach the wire. And you might move the whole branch, not just one twig by pulling with a guy wire.

Here's the deal: if the bend you're trying to make won't hold using traditional wire, then add a guy.

You wrote: Traditional spiral wiring is much more precise than guy wiring. You can't do fine wiring using guy wires. That is absolutely true. Guy wires cannot put sophisticated detail in something unless pulling the branch up, down, or side ways is the sophisticated detail you were looking for. Guy wiring is nothing more than a technique to be used in the proper place for the proper reason just like clip and grow. However though you can get a branch to bend down by spiral wiring there is a risk that the wire may have to be so heavy that the bark is damaged in the process or if the tree does not take to the move you may have to unwire and rewire lest the brahch is damaged. Guy wiring is like using a truck, spiral wiring is like using a sports car. You would not race a PeterBuilt at the Indy 500, neither would you use a Corvette to haul two tons of cement.

 

[Djtommy]

You wrote: Traditional spiral wiring is much more precise than guy wiring. You can't do fine wiring using guy wires. That is absolutely true. Guy wires cannot put sophisticated detail in something unless pulling the branch up, down, or side ways is the sophisticated detail you were looking for. Guy wiring is nothing more than a technique to be used in the proper place for the proper reason just like clip and grow. However though you can get a branch to bend down by spiral wiring there is a risk that the wire may have to be so heavy that the bark is damaged in the process or if the tree does not take to the move you may have to unwire and rewire lest the brahch is damaged. Guy wiring is like using a truck, spiral wiring is like using a sports car. You would not race a PeterBuilt at the Indy 500, neither would you use a Corvette to haul two tons of cement.

actually most of the time they are used together, on a pine/conifer i have never put a guy wire on a branch where as the branch itself wasnt wired as well.
for deciduous it works a little different.

 

[Djtommy]

Guy wires are generally not appropriate for "show trees". That is, if the tree has guywires, it's not yet ready to be shown.

i guess that would depend on the show, kokufu, i can not remember seeing a guy wire but other shows i went to i saw, but in those cases its done very nicely.

 

[Adair M]

actually most of the time they are used together, on a pine/conifer i have never put a guy wire on a branch where as the branch itself wasnt wired as well.
for deciduous it works a little different.

Most of the time only spiral wiring is used. Guy wires are used if spiral wiring by itself is ineffective.

Doing big bends on heavy trunks/branches using jacks and apparatuses is a whole different matter.

 

[Djtommy]

Guy wires are generally not appropriate for "show trees". That is, if the tree has guywires, it's not yet ready to be shown.

here is one

 

[Djtommy]

Most of the time only spiral wiring is used. Guy wires are used if spiral wiring by itself is ineffective.

Doing big bends on heavy trunks/branches using jacks and apparatuses is a whole different matter.

well yes, i ment in case a guy wire is used, a spiral wire would also be aplied most of the time, not the opposite

 

[Adair M]

i guess that would depend on the show, kokufu, i can not remember seeing a guy wire but other shows i went to i saw, but in those cases its done very nicely.

Agreed.

 

[Vance Wood]

actually most of the time they are used together, on a pine/conifer i have never put a guy wire on a branch where as the branch itself wasnt wired as well.
for deciduous it works a little different.

Yes that is true, but the discussion seemed to center around either or. The truth is pragmatism is the most important technique you can use.

 

[Adair M]

well yes, i ment in case a guy wire is used, a spiral wire would also be aplied most of the time, not the opposite

Dj, did you pick anything up at the Green Club this year?

 

[Djtommy]

Dj, did you pick anything up at the Green Club this year?

only raffia, grafting tape and a knobcutter. there were some nice trees for sure but most of the trees sold there are in close to finished state and the other stuff, i found to be rather pricey.
I know other places where i can buy cheaper. found a new spot last week, far from my home but i go there sometimes for work, bought 4 stones and a zelkova there, was damn heavy to bring back home by train.., right now im actually close to your friends home, daisaku nomotos nursery but i can not make time to go there this time, i visited the nursery twice before but i only met with his father as the son was in usa or somewhere