2019 From seed

With foliage, we normally would want to graft a tree to itself to ensure consistency. IIRC with root grafts it is usually less critical.

What about taking JBP and grafting to EWP or any number of other common grafting combinations? My point being, grafting is common practice so the concern of different genetic strains isnt a substantitve argument against the process this redditor followed.
 
What about taking JBP and grafting to EWP or any number of other common grafting combinations? My point being, grafting is common practice so the concern of different genetic strains isnt a substantitve argument against the process this redditor followed.
There is an important difference. Normally with a species change we are combining desirable aspects of rootstock and foliage. For example, replace JBP foliage with JWP foliage, or take advantage of a great yamadori pine trunk and put better JBP foliage on it. In these cases 100% of the foliage is replaced. If you combine foliage with different genetics, it may be fine, or you may have trouble in refinement getting the tree to be consistent.
 
But what was the criticism? I really do not see the major benefit here..?
You take a few seedlings and let them merge together. So now you have different genetic strains in one plant. And you do not get a substantial thicker trunk to work with. I think it is less than a season worth of growth difference..?

The criticism he received was that it simply can’t be done. User shades_of_gravy was lambasted rather viciously for even trying something against the norm. Though he succeeded and not to much surprise, his follow up post wasn’t acknowledged by his nay-sayers.

I agree, having multiple sets of genetics contained within one specimen could cause some mishaps in the future. Or they may all express indistinguishable phenotypes. That is something the practitioner would find with time.

From what I understand, in the fruit growing business, there are often three types of stock used: a root stock, a trunk stock and a branch, or fruit bearing stock. The root stock is selected for hardiness or resistance against pests or fungal attacks, the trunk is selected for its size or dwarvism, allowing convenience of maintenance and harvesting and the branch stock for its desirable fruit.

Under this premise, one would in theory be able to circumvent the potential issue of rolling the dice on genetics in a “compound” organism. Essentially one would be creating the compound approach graft to quickly build a trunk/nebari. If someone was able to say, approach graft 15-20 seedlings together, for example, then I think it would definitely be worth it in terms of quickly accelerating the development of trunk girth and character. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen a JBP seedling with as much girth as his in the follow-up post even at two years of age.

Once the fusion has fully taken hold and the vascular tissue is fully incorporated amongst all the individuals, say after 3-5 years, one would graft on a scion of a desired species to the newly formed trunk. This would ensure uniform foliar development and limit the possibility of having spotty growth if one of the veins and subsequent foliage dies off. I don’t think the remaining genetic difference within the roots and trunk would make any difference to the bonsai practitioner as the foliage is where you’d observe the greatest variance in phenotype with the naked eye. To be sure, you could also graft the new trunk on to a rootstock in order to prevent sections of your root system from spontaneously dying off via strangulation etc. I don’t know at what quantity of seedlings one would start to observe failure. Though you might end up with some cool looking dead veins until the healthier surrounding seedlings in the graft eventually consume and incorporate the dead ones. I also don’t know how long it would take for complete vascular incorporation amongst all the individuals and how long one would have to watch for sectioned die-off.

I understand this is some Frankenstein shit but if only for the expansion of knowledge into what is possible in the species and practice, I see it as worthwhile.
 
I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen a JBP seedling with as much girth as his in the follow-up post even at two years of age.
The follow-up was of course in the third year of growing. And then yes, I know of examples. One of them on this forum: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/a-few-pine-seeds-6-years-later.7033/

I particularly dislike the nebari, and as said, I do not think it add much when using youngsters like this. But well, nice experiment.
 
This is my ever growing list for the year so far:

1 oz JBP (along with several I collected myself but were much less viable)
1 oz Tridents
1 oz Lacebark pine
1 oz Amur Maples
All the above were purchased from Schumacher

Below are ones I collected from local trees:
BC (I did one trial seed that is already sprouting inside)
Celtis Occ. (from a mother tree with extremely tiny leaves)
English Oak (collected small leaves)
Tilia Cordata
Tilia Americana (not expecting much success from either of these Lindens)
JBP (local trees don't seem to produce much viable seed...even really healthy trees)
Random Pine (no clue what variety...foliage looks like red pine, bark like black pine...pine cones painful to handle)
Am. Hornbeam

My list of things I want to do this spring is incredibly long. I am not sure I will get around to it all.
 
@Lou T
Trunk fusion is possible. It is occasionally done. I had not seen it done with JBP, but there is no reason it can not be done. Should work.
IF you look at some of the fusion projects, like Fusion Bonsai - Greg Wentzel - pioneered this process over 15 years ago.
So there is no reason it would not work.
But what is the goal?
Just a fat trunk is one thing, but for pines, getting the proper placement of branches is not as easy as with deciduous trees. Fusion techniques are not real popular because it is difficult to end up with a natural looking trunk with properly placed branches. Often, by the time you get a natural trunk, with properly placed branches out of a fusion project you could have grown out a similar tree from a single seedling. It is not the ''short cut'' that some hoped it would be.

Fusion for bonsai is an interesting technique, a good one for the ''bonsai tool kit'' but it is not a new or fool proof technique.

There is no ''big deal'' it is okay to have heterogeneous genetics in a fusion project. But key is, the end product needs to look natural, or accomplish an effect beneficial to display. Often mixed genetics does not improve display. Or needs to be corrected later.

see https://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/trunk-fusion
 
I placed my orders, let’s hope it goes better than last year.
Getting seeds from Chinese websites are a hit and miss, the one time I bought rose seeds and didn’t know they sent me morning glory after they had already grown.
Shipping across the planet is also not reliable because I want a pack of 10 or 20 seeds, not a whole pound of them.
So I gotta get a buddy that’s travelling that way to do me a favour
 

Attachments

  • 35AD1C20-3A71-45D7-A900-FBB306481292.png
    35AD1C20-3A71-45D7-A900-FBB306481292.png
    134.7 KB · Views: 7
  • 77CAF118-C2FE-43E3-A980-565083A5D72A.png
    77CAF118-C2FE-43E3-A980-565083A5D72A.png
    139.5 KB · Views: 8
  • DDD19008-14AE-4A82-88E7-F4DC16476978.png
    DDD19008-14AE-4A82-88E7-F4DC16476978.png
    72.9 KB · Views: 8
  • 1778477B-2AFC-4BDE-B78D-ACD5FB738580.png
    1778477B-2AFC-4BDE-B78D-ACD5FB738580.png
    158.6 KB · Views: 8
  • 9A0A2BF0-040A-4E0D-9198-EF58EBE5C7A0.png
    9A0A2BF0-040A-4E0D-9198-EF58EBE5C7A0.png
    250.1 KB · Views: 7
I did the same way long time ago,

My tip is, get as many seeds as possible, from the 10 that you ordered you dont know how fresh they are so you might get 1 or 2 seeds germinating and from there in 2 years 1 tree might survive or all will be dead.
Having 100 trees germinating let you pick the strongest one, more room for mistakes etc.
im not ordering less than 100 seeds
 
Curious if my hibiscus seeds will come up. I think I collected them slightly early. I think i have at least one viable. Will see.

Next year ill get them closer to end of october if possible.
 
I'm going to try and get through my back log of seeds from previous years. Still have hundreds of not thousands left. Just going to concentrate on Australian natives and try and up my cuttings game.
 
I placed my orders, let’s hope it goes better than last year.
Getting seeds from Chinese websites are a hit and miss, the one time I bought rose seeds and didn’t know they sent me morning glory after they had already grown.
Shipping across the planet is also not reliable because I want a pack of 10 or 20 seeds, not a whole pound of them.
So I gotta get a buddy that’s travelling that way to do me a favour

Who would have thought Scotch pine was exotic!? LOL
 
I placed my orders, let’s hope it goes better than last year.
Getting seeds from Chinese websites are a hit and miss, the one time I bought rose seeds and didn’t know they sent me morning glory after they had already grown.
Shipping across the planet is also not reliable because I want a pack of 10 or 20 seeds, not a whole pound of them.
So I gotta get a buddy that’s travelling that way to do me a favour

Seeds for Africa - in Africa the Scott's pine would be an exotic. All those trees would be exotic in China. Question, you list you are in zone 10, that is quite warm. How do you plan to chill your scott's pine in winter? I thought it needed a cold winter rest? I could be wrong, and seeds from Africa probably came from trees that don't get as cold a winter as they would in Europe. I'll be curious as to how they do over a 5 year period. (First year, they might not notice the lack of winter)
 
@Timbo exotic in both countries
@Leo in N E Illinois I figured if they sell them, then it should be ok there. And I’m going on that rule of a potted tree sets it back 2 zones. I can also put it on the north side of a building for good measure. Or I’ll just try what ol’ @Anthony is trying, I’ll bend it to my will.
If it works, fantastic, if it doesn’t, lesson learned
 
I went to my back garden to do a bit of cleaning here and there, i had some maple seeds that i planted in November, to check how natural stratification would do.
So i started moving trays and what i see, wow i didnt not believe it, there was 2 Acer Palmatum seeds already germinated and i can see next 3 are raising up.

Deadly!
 
Great thread for sure. I ordered Brazilian Rain Tree that should get here any day now. Anyone with experience of growing these from seed? I thought I’d try growing them in under lights for starters if they wake up. In the dead of winter here in Sweden so won’t see any spring sun for a while.
Also, anyone know of a good reliable seed online store in Europe comparable with Sheffield’s/Schumacher?
Cheers
 
Korean hornbeam (double dormancy, any pointers welcome)
Trident maple
Japanese larch
Chinese hackberry
Bald cypress
 
Back
Top Bottom