Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Nice Serg. Once again, mine got about a far as yours are now, and dropped off. I need to figure these things out...
About Princess Persimmon
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MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Nice , I like the composition
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
How tall is it, about 3 feet?
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Mine with more fruit than it ever has had. It fruits with no male. They thicken up extremely slow and heal even more slowly! But everyone should have at least one in their collection.
A friend lent me a Chinese book on D. Cathayensis, the other popular small orange persimmon in bonsai. I wish to make a correction to the record here, I earlier called these D. Morrisiana based on a Japanese book which proved to be incorrect. So some of you own Cathayensis and not Morrisiana.
Again the key differences between Cathayensis and Rhombifolia are:
Pictures from the Cathayensis book (thanks Ellen!)
I didn't know Cathayensis comes in other shapes and colors too
Again the key differences between Cathayensis and Rhombifolia are:
- Cathayensis does not lose its leaves in winter. The leaves are waxier and feel thicker.
- The mature bark is black on Cathayensis as opposed to white on rhombifolia
- The fruits are generally larger on Cathayensis and generally completely round with no point at the bottom where the flower attached (exceptions below)
Pictures from the Cathayensis book (thanks Ellen!)
I didn't know Cathayensis comes in other shapes and colors too
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
I am finding that thickening the trunks takes longer than expected. This is the result after year six for my seedlings. I placed them in the grow bed three years ago. the seeds were germinated in January of 2016. The variety is black princess persimmon. Not sure of the correct nomenclature. I purchased a packet of seed from a vendor at Taikan Ten in November 2015. The thickest trunk is now 3/4 inch but they vary with some being quite a bit thinner. I have been told that they can begin to fruit or flower in seven to ten years. So I am anxiously awaiting, perhaps this year. I have decided to leave them in the grow bed until the trunks reach approximately 1 inch before considering removal and placement in individual training pots. I am hoping the roots do not get to intertwined before that happens. I have lost a few on the journey, mostly the first season after planting out in the grow bed. I started with twenty-five seeds in the packet, down to fifteen survivors.
Process so far has been wiring new growth, trimming side shoots to promote trunk thickening along with lots of water and fertilizer throughout the growing season. They get very heavy with foliage in a season, one would expect more trunk thickening. Alas the trunk and branches are definitely on the slender side.
Has anyone experience with air layering persimmon?
Process so far has been wiring new growth, trimming side shoots to promote trunk thickening along with lots of water and fertilizer throughout the growing season. They get very heavy with foliage in a season, one would expect more trunk thickening. Alas the trunk and branches are definitely on the slender side.
Has anyone experience with air layering persimmon?
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badatusernames
Omono
This species intrigues me…. After hearing about how difficult they can be I sorta backed away but I’m keeping my eyes peeled…. I feel like this one might be an example of where I should wait til I’m more firm in my skills.
maybe if I see something at a stage to be ground grown I’ll throw it in my growing area. I’d be curious to hear of folks think I’m over-blowing the difficulty…. After splurging on an ume last year I’m pretty sure I’m about as far over my skis as one can get with new species though!
maybe if I see something at a stage to be ground grown I’ll throw it in my growing area. I’d be curious to hear of folks think I’m over-blowing the difficulty…. After splurging on an ume last year I’m pretty sure I’m about as far over my skis as one can get with new species though!
About layering
I am layering 5 trees right now, and I am ground layering another two as well. Started last summer in the usual way. Some have roots. I will report out when separated.
About flowering
Flower buds form the previous fall. They are usually on the terminal end of a branch and are very fat compared to leaf buds. In Oregon my flower buds are starting to move already.
I recommend Miracle Grow to encourage flowering. Normal concentration every week. My mature trees all have more flower buds this year than last.
About thickening
They don't thicken much. My thickest is only about 3 inches but it is 30+ years old. I am experimenting with ground planting and miracle grow. The fat Chinese specimens are yamadori.
P.S. Let's trade some day, I don't have a black one!
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Air layering will be useful later on as I intend to try and thicken trunks to the point that cutting back sections for better taper and movement will be desirable.
Thanks for the response and information included. I have been using a combination of Apex Plus ( Slow release osmocote pellet type that is temperature sensitive) and an organic cake formulae that I have had success with in the past. It has worked very well for my Mume and Chojubai. I have avoided liquid fertilizers because I am using inorganic growing medium. I think the liquid would be easier to use and more effective if my growing medium had organic components such as fir or pine bark.
The thickening has improved after placing in the grow beds and limiting the root work. I do feel the initial progress was slowed by root work that I felt was important in the early stages. Most of the literature I have used for reference indicates that the younger plants respond better to root work so I felt it was important to get a good foundation early on and worry about the trunk size once a basic root formation was established. I was also hoping that would allow them to adapt faster to growing out and stronger without winter protection in my area. So far this seems to be the case over the past two winters.
Thanks again.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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Here are some images I had on hand. Air layering is documented in two of the best books on Persimmon. I do wonder if the success rate of air layering varies based on cultivar since the success rate of cuttings certainly does. They are very much like Japanese Maples and Ume in this way. Some of the Persimmons I received from Japan this month still have a stub below the roots (used for anchoring, I suppose) which is a clear indication that they were started as air layers.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing your plants produce fruit, since I have not found anything in the literature about the heritability through seed of the black coloration of fruit. I have read that some characteristics are unlikely to be passed on through seed, such as the 'faded' colors (see attached example: Ou Ryu) or the near-perfect sphericity (see attached example: Sahou Hime). I have not read anything about black coloration though. @River's Edge do you know for sure that all of the seeds you had came from black fruits? If so, this may coincidentally turn out to have been a great decade-long experiment on the heritability of this feature! (I should say that even if all of the fruit was black we will not know the genetic profile of the males who supplied the pollen to produce your seeds of course)
How many plants are there in total?
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rustygarden
Shohin
I air layered 3 last summer and removed before winter . All three look to be doing well .Granted they are only pencil thick . I just couldn't bear to throw them away . Nao these are from the trees we got from Dennis . Seem to be easy . Sorry about the pictures![IMG_4364[7834] pp air layer.JPG](https://www.bonsainut.com/data/attachments/409/409732-e365222f75f30e210669c163b912de88.jpg?hash=42UiL3XzDi "IMG_4364[7834] pp air layer.JPG")
![IMG_4368[7842] pp air layer.JPG](https://www.bonsainut.com/data/attachments/409/409733-e2a06aa7160736bd8a8101cc364c53c1.jpg?hash=4qBqpxYHNr "IMG_4368[7842] pp air layer.JPG")
![IMG_4370[7846] pp air layer.JPG](https://www.bonsainut.com/data/attachments/409/409734-475df343d932de932a205b7a29b6400a.jpg?hash=R13zQ9ky3p "IMG_4370[7846] pp air layer.JPG")
BonsaiDTLA
Shohin
Thanks for sharing your success. Any pictures of how the roots looked at separation?
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
These look like ground layering to me rather than a typical air layer removing an upper portion of the tree. What is your perspective on this? Am I confused?
rustygarden
Shohin
Sorry no . I need to be better at documentation. They weren't full of roots but it looked like they would live , I didn't want to leave them over winter . Just an experiment. My friend Nao said they were easy to layer and he is right .
rustygarden
Shohin
No just air layering . I didn't want to just cut off and discard . Very small sphagnum moss ball about the size of a golf ball . And yes they are very slow to thicken ,see ya in 15 years .lol
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Oh I get it now, the pictures are of the separated portions, not showing the prior air layer. My bad. I thought the smaller pot was hiding the layer and sitting on top of the lower portion in a larger pot. need to clean my glasses again.
rustygarden
Shohin
I know what you mean , sometimes I need my glasses to find my glasses haha.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Update! When I checked more carefully I discovered that one of the persimmon was chewed off at the base. As I was cleaning away leaves the tree came loose and flopped over. Decided that I was not willing to risk losing the remaining few by leaving them in the grow bed. I had left a layer of leaves for winter protection and I think the extra cover may have attracted the mice.
Turns out that it was a good decision as the roots were way more entangled then I expected. Planted too close together initially if intended to leave for longer period. The result is fourteen individual trees planted in 8 inch diameter azalea pots to continue grow out! Lots of thicker roots and feeder roots as shown below. Long term this will be better for root ball formation with a higher percentage of feeder roots. Also with the plants being younger the root work now should have less of an impact on the overall progress. I did not save any thick roots for propagation. The reason being is that I still not know which if any trees are female and will bear fruit. I am glad I wired and pruned for some movement and taper early on as they appear to have a good start for design. here are some pictures showing the result. I included a shot of the grow bed after clean up to give everyone an idea of the extensive pile of roots removed after separating the plants. This is just the group that remained in the grow bed and needed to be removed prior to the next planting. The soil is inorganic and will continue to be reused. This bed is 12 years old and the wooden sides are beginning to soften, will likely need replacing in four or five years.Picture one shows root ball retained as an example!
Picture two the 14 individual trees potted up and one sucker kept in a yogurt container. ( it had a head start, didn't seem fair to trash it)
Picture three an individual tree, they are between 18 inch and 24 inch high, trunks between 3/4 inch and 1/2 inch diameter.
Picture four the grow bed cleaned out of roots and ready to re-use! Note the quantity of thick roots removed.
