Will this graft of the Shishigashira potentially get better over time?

[Yamamomiji]

Dear forum,

I got a good offer for a Shishigashira I like. It has a good nebari, good movement of the trunk and branch structure.

However there's always a catch, so the maple is clearly grafted, revealing that the upper part is comparable young against the base.

My question is, if this graft may get better or not? I suspect over time the colours are more likely to match but that hunch makes me wonder. Even with carving this will most presumably always make a clear distinction. Or am I wrong (what would be good, because it is offered to a good price)?

Thank you.

 

[leatherback]

the graft is nto too bad. I think as the top ages, the color will match a lot better.

In winter you can spray the tree with diluted (1_20, 1:100) lime sulphur which may aid in blending in.

 

[Jrmcmich]

@Shibui showed some of his trees earlier this spring and one had a graft and you couldn’t tell and seems like you have a good base there

 

[roberthu]

Maple grafts always mesh together really well over time. Yours looks pretty good to me.

 

[deadcs]

are you sure it is grafted? the lowest branch is in the "grafted part" and it is a shishigashira branch...
Some maples develop that "2 zones" that look that way.

 

[River's Edge]

Dear forum,

I got a good offer for a Shishigashira I like. It has a good nebari, good movement of the trunk and branch structure.

However there's always a catch, so the maple is clearly grafted, revealing that the upper part is comparable young against the base.

My question is, if this graft may get better or not? I suspect over time the colours are more likely to match but that hunch makes me wonder. Even with carving this will most presumably always make a clear distinction. Or am I wrong (what would be good, because it is offered to a good price)?

Thank you.

Perhaps one might consider first if you are excited about the Nebari or would you wish for improvement? The graft itself is not terrible, however the species of root stock and the shishigara may not match in growth rate or bark color over time. That is another consideration.
One other question may be along the lines of what would the quality of the tree look like with a successful layering and stronger nebari over time.
As for the question of price versus quality I would consider judging three things in this order.
First Nebari
Second trunk shape ( grafted )
Third Primary branch structure.
In the last two consider taper and movement as desirable and lack thereof as a reason to reject. In the case of the trunk the movement appears to be primarily from the shape of the graft.
Just some questions to guide your observations.
Most importantly would you be happy spending the amount of time and care needed for this material?
It Depends.

 

[Jrmcmich]

Found @Shibui post from earlier. Not sure how to embed from other post so below is not my info but from shibui post.

I think this would be my oldest Japanese maple. Styled well before I realised that JM do not normally grow as informal upright trees so this is a case of a tree styled to look like a 'bonsai' rather than a bonsai styled to look like a real tree.

It is also grafted. Can you spot the graft?
Display stand made by Shibui from Australian hardwoods.

 

[Yamamomiji]

Thank you @leatherback, @roberthu for your comments and tips. These are really helpful for me.

@River's Edge A special thanks for your considerations, as always to the point and tremendously valuable. As you've pointed out, I sometimes struggle, though I have been caring for trees for quite some time, to envision what lies within the next 5 - 10 years ahead. So as you have rightly stated: would I appreciate the way along? If the development is not completely on a stand still for aeons, I guess it is as demanding and contributing to one's patience as for the quality of the tree. I will have a good sleep over it through the weekend and decide later on.

@Jrmcmich Thank you for investigating. Really interesting ... From the posted pictures of @Shibui tree I clearly would not think of a grafted tree, so that is pretty stunning.
@deadcs I was uncertain at first two, but the seller confirmed it is ... I wouldn't mind the colour so much, because this will change as my other maples did, but not completely sure about that hunch and abrupt line change. Now that you mentioned it, I've seen a friend's Benichidori which hat that bump too, so either it is a common style to graft or as you said, a peculiar habit of growth.

 

[River's Edge]

One further thought. Grafts are considered more acceptable in species that are difficult to acquire on their own roots. Often we acquire trees that are grafted simply because they are propagated in that manner to provide stronger rootstock for particular climates. Would a grafted Shisishigara be more suitable for your climatic location? Are they difficult to acquire in your area from nurseries on their own roots? Would a Shisishigara do well in your climate if not grafted?
I cannot tell from the pictures how much movement or taper is in the primary branch structure. Also the level of refinement that may be present in the finer branching. That will contribute to the amount of work that may need to be redone.
Perhaps the biggest question remains unasked. Are you looking to develop show quality? If so then the graft is a clear reason for rejection in this particular species. Very easy to airliner and grow on its own roots. You would almost always be competing with non grafted trees in a show setting.
If not after show quality results then not as serious a consideration.
Shisishigara have natural growth habits that tend towards straight sections and absence of taper unless a lot of early work has gone into development. Check for the level of these two aspects when considering quality and value. Is the design believable for the species? Another question that is probably only important for some to consider.
Best in Bonsai

 

[Wulfskaar]

are you sure it is grafted? the lowest branch is in the "grafted part" and it is a shishigashira branch...
Some maples develop that "2 zones" that look that way.

Good eye, mate! If it was a graft on a normal Japanese maple, that lowest branch would have normal leaves.

 

[River's Edge]

Good eye, mate! If it was a graft on a normal Japanese maple, that lowest branch would have normal leaves.

If one looks closer at the second picture the lowest branch could easily emanate from the Shisishigara portion of the slanted graft. I would be inclined to accept the sellers claim that it is grafted. Just an observation mate.

 

[Yamamomiji]

Thank you for your active participation, that is very much appreciated.

My little Shishigashira Shohin I got recently (https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/shishigashira-shohin-stopped-leafing-out.69303/post-1195357) is most likely dead now, so this is why I wanted to find another one.

An additional picture of the lowest portion may help us answering the question a of graft I received.

 

[leatherback]

us answering the question a of graft I received.

I would be very surprised if that is not a graft. But a graft done quite expertly with bonsai in mind, not a mass production cleft and tongue graft.

 

[Yamamomiji]

@River's Edge
Coming back to your question: no, the tree is not intended to be exhibited on a show just to my collection. But that does certainly not mean, it is not worthy trying to get the best out of it.

So the graft is not an obstacle in terms of competitiveness but my wish to develop the tree into a harmonic composition with probably a little flaw here and there, totally acceptable in the private field considering time, cost and effort.

Bonsai gives me relief after a stressful day and on the way hopefully a better approach to patience and long-term vision, if that makes sense.

@leatherback
Yeah, the tree was developed with Bonsai in mind definitely Jelle. I would be surprised if it's not from Japan anyway.

 

[leatherback]

. I would be surprised if it's not from Japan anyway.

Yes, could well be Japan import but quite some time ago. The lower trunk scares..

 

[River's Edge]

Thank you for your active participation, that is very much appreciated.

My little Shishigashira Shohin I got recently (https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/shishigashira-shohin-stopped-leafing-out.69303/post-1195357) is most likely dead now, so this is why I wanted to find another one.

An additional picture of the lowest portion may help us answering the question a of graft I received.

Thanks for the additional picture, could be bud on the lowest part of theShisishigara portion of the graft. Or it could easily be a clever thread graft in a great location to help distract from the graft and create unity. Examination of the other side should reveal slight scarring if that is the case where the thread graft entered.
Enjoy the journey! If a tree enters my collection it is with the intent to make the most out of its potential. They all deserve the effort.
Although I am still developing a considerable number, those I number as my personal collection are approximately twenty.

 

[Yamamomiji]

@River's Edge
That is very kind of you Frank! Also much appreciated that you take the time and effort to reply to a lot of members here with your expertise and experience.

One day I hope to reach some similar point of confidence and vision for my trees.

So watch out for a potential thread of this Shishigashira in the future.