Will the "huge trunk, no nebari" trend be the future of bonsai?

[WNC Bonsai]

One thing I have noticed is that more of these big trunk trees are coming from folks who are out collecting either yamadori or landscape grown trees. It seems we went through the nursery tree stage, then the grow it from seed stage, and now the collect it stage. I was fortunate i the 1970s to have access to some rocky cliffs on my grandads farm and found some nice old pines. I just wish I still had them or at least the energy to climb that mountain and scale those cliffs. At that time I didn’t know anyone who was digging up hornbeam, or beech, or any other yamadori much less information on how to keep them alive afterward. We really are in a great time for those who have the energy and will to go out after them.

 

[bonsaichile]

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're seeing and it's too bad you assume the worst about your fellow Americans. While there are certainly those who are overcompensating, stupid, or both, the reason for "supersized" is that we have the freakin room to do it in--with miles to spare. Hell, it takes TWO DAYS to drive across Texas at 75 mph--800 miles north to south, 775 east to west (and would you rather be crammed into a Subaru or Volvo, or a roomy Caddy, or GMC full size pickup while doing it) BTW England is only 600 miles long from its Southern Coast to Scotland's North Coast....We are a country full of people who couldn't and wouldn't be fenced in within other countries. A lot of us, or our ancestors, were thrown out of those countries because we/they saw things differently. They wanted different things or disagreed profoundly with the idiots running their home countries. Others were brought here against their will, or out of dire circumstance, to live in poverty and subjugation, who also want better.

That supersize attitude is also a product of optimism. Americans are irritatingly optimistic to Europeans, etc. Maybe so, but that optimism lead to us mostly leading the free world, after we fueled the defeat of the greatest oppressors the world has ever seen. Without the U.S. big, brawny sprawling manufacturing and material production in the Second World War (and its substantial support in re-building), Europe and Asia wouldn't be where they are now.

The optimism streak is an interesting take, but I have a hard time squaring it with the gloom and doom I have seen coming from the right in my years here. I also noticed that there was a seismic shift in attitudes after 9/11. I came to this country a few years before that, and I will never forget the cab driver who took me from the airport to the dorms of the college I had enrolled in. He was proudly telling me about this country and we exchanged impressions and ideas. As he helped me get my luggage out of the car's trunk, he extended a hand and told me, with the broadest of smiles, "Welcome to America. Join us in the Republican party." I don't think I would get that kind of reception now, unfortunately.

 

[Cajunrider]

I would like to pull this thread back to bonsai. For me, it is hard to see a big trunk without a nebari. Naturally there will be big roots to go with the big trunks. Of course, a lot of them will not have that perfect all around nebari. Some build back and compensation and design around will have to take place. For many of us, dealing with nebari is a bit easier and quicker that building trunks from sticks. Unless we can afford to buy perfectly shaped pre-bonsai trees, we generally will have to find an expedient path to acceptable bonsai and a large trunk offers an easier path.

 

[Clicio]

I would like to pull this thread back to bonsai.

Thank you.

 

[bonsaichile]

I would like to pull this thread back to bonsai. For me, it is hard to see a big trunk without a nebari. Naturally there will be big roots to go with the big trunks. Of course, a lot of them will not have that perfect all around nebari. Some build back and compensation and design around will have to take place. For many of us, dealing with nebari is a bit easier and quicker that building trunks from sticks. Unless we can afford to buy perfectly shaped pre-bonsai trees, we generally will have to find an expedient path to acceptable bonsai and a large trunk offers an easier path.

But I think @Clicio was objecting not the use of large trunks from collected trees or trees grown in the ground, but rather the fact that an excessive focus on large trunks is obscuring the appreciation of other forms of bonsai. An "acceptable" bonsai does not have to have a large trunk, nor it is the only way to go. It is really hard to do a "mother-son" composition or any group planting with very large trees, for example. I think part of the trend has to do with the trees shown in Mirai, for example. They tend to be big and quite spectacular. They make for good, impactful visuals. But there is a lot of variety in bonsai. Large trunks are only one subset, and not the only way to produce "acceptable" bonsai.

 

[Cajunrider]

But I think @Clicio was objecting not the use of large trunks from collected trees or trees grown in the ground, but rather the fact that an excessive focus on large trunks is obscuring the appreciation of other forms of bonsai. An "acceptable" bonsai does not have to have a large trunk, nor it is the only way to go. It is really hard to do a "mother-son" composition or any group planting with very large trees, for example. I think part of the trend has to do with the trees shown in Mirai, for example. They tend to be big and quite spectacular. They make for good, impactful visuals. But there is a lot of variety in bonsai. Large trunks are only one subset, and not the only way to produce "acceptable" bonsai.

No argument from me. I am just saying that you see a lot of discussion on large trunks here simply because some of us got lucky and get our hands on a few. However, there is no shortage of people just starting out with a curvy pencil size trunks.

 

[Clicio]

But I think @Clicio was objecting not the use of large trunks from collected trees or trees grown in the ground, but rather the fact that an excessive focus on large trunks is obscuring the appreciation of other forms of bonsai.

Yes, nothing against large trunks per se.
Let me put this way; my job has taken me to Japan several times in the last 10 years. I was lucky enough to have free time and visit the nurseries, to attend some exhibitions and shop in local commerce.
Many of the bonsai being shown, even in Omiya Bonsai Museum, were not big, but still very impressive.
What makes me think about some bonsai people running after stumps all the time, and never showing any decent tree as bonsai.
Everywhere.
Here in South America, in the USA, Europe, South Asia, everywhere.
That's why I said it must be a trend.

 

[Clicio]

However, there is no shortage of people just starting out with a curvy pencil size trunks.

I haven't said that; I've been saying that there are beautiful bonsai in all sizes; I have seen quite a few.

 

[bonsaichile]

No argument from me. I am just saying that you see a lot of discussion on large trunks here simply because some of us got lucky and get our hands on a few. However, there is no shortage of people just starting out with a curvy pencil size trunks.

Not necessarily. With patience, you can find decent nursery material at reasonable prices that, with some skill, luck and time (not always in that order) can turn into very nice shohin trees, without starting from a pencil-size stick in a pot or without the need to try to thicken the trunk. @Vance Wood's mugos come to mind, for example.

 

[Gabler]

The way I see it, a bonsai tree is an idealized representation of a natural tree. As a practical matter, they need to be miniaturized. In theory, a person with an infinitely long lifespan could train a full-sized tree to an idealized form. It would also require heavy machinery to move and/or repot the tree—equipment only available within the last century.

Some of the best trees in the world are nonetheless huge, relative to the height and weight of an adult human, requiring multiple people to lift, since you can fit more nuance and detail into a bigger canvas, so to speak. Younger practitioners, less limited by weight and time constraints, are naturally more eager to grow bigger, more impressive trees, emulating the more impressive examples from shows, magazines, etc. However, there has not yet been enough time to develop the roots and branches on such big trunks, so we’re seeing lots of chunky but unrefined trees. In twenty years, we should expect to see lots of big, highly-refined trees.

 

[rockm]

Yes, nothing against large trunks per se.
Let me put this way; my job has taken me to Japan several times in the last 10 years. I was lucky enough to have free time and visit the nurseries, to attend some exhibitions and shop in local commerce.
Many of the bonsai being shown, even in Omiya Bonsai Museum, were not big, but still very impressive.
What makes me think about some bonsai people running after stumps all the time, and never showing any decent tree as bonsai.
Everywhere.
Here in South America, in the USA, Europe, South Asia, everywhere.
That's why I said it must be a trend.

FWIW, the trees gifted from Japan now in the National Bonsai and Penjing museum have long lineage with many Japanese nurseries and the Imperial Household. They are all medium to extremely large bonsai. The Yamaki pine is huge, The Prince Takamaki trident maple is almost 4 feet tall. The Japanese Red Pine at the collection is taller than the Yamaki pine. The average size of the trees in the Japanese collection I'd say average in the two to three foot range. There are shohin, but certainly not as numerous. Given that the age of many of the larger trees is well over 100 years, the "big tree" thing isn't just American. There are some huge bonsai in the Japanese Imperial Collection too. The reason Ryan Neil is working huge collected conifers is that they are expressive and still relatively common in the western U.S. Not so in Europe or Japan.

 

[bonsaichile]

FWIW, the trees gifted from Japan now in the National Bonsai and Penjing museum have long lineage with many Japanese nurseries and the Imperial Household. They are all medium to extremely large bonsai. The Yamaki pine is huge, The Prince Takamaki trident maple is almost 4 feet tall. The Japanese Red Pine at the collection is taller than the Yamaki pine. The average size of the trees in the Japanese collection I'd say average in the two to three foot range. There are shohin, but certainly not as numerous. Given that the age of many of the larger trees is well over 100 years, the "big tree" thing isn't just American. There are some huge bonsai in the Japanese Imperial Collection too. The reason Ryan Neil is working huge collected conifers is that they are expressive and still relatively common in the western U.S. Not so in Europe or Japan.

But in all the examples you mentioned, size is a factor of time. That's not necessarily the case OP was complaining about, where trunk size in new trees seems to trump other fearures (nebari, fine twigging, etc)

 

[Gabler]

But in all the examples you mentioned, size is a factor of time. That's not necessarily the case OP was complaining about, where trunk size in new trees seems to trump other fearures (nebari, fine twigging, etc)

That’s exactly what I was getting at when I said:

Younger practitioners, less limited by weight and time constraints, are naturally more eager to grow bigger, more impressive trees, emulating the more impressive examples from shows, magazines, etc.

I think the trend toward bigger trees reflects what we see in those masterpieces.

 

[Clicio]

FWIW, the trees gifted from Japan now in the National Bonsai and Penjing museum have long lineage with many Japanese nurseries and the Imperial Household. They are all medium to extremely large bonsai. The Yamaki pine is huge, The Prince Takamaki trident maple is almost 4 feet tall. The Japanese Red Pine at the collection is taller than the Yamaki pine.

Yes, you are right.
But all of them are old trees, and I guess any good sized tree, with time and talented hands, can/will be an impressive bonsai.
My concern is with young people collecting stumps and naming them bonsai, just because they are thick and alive, in a box.

 

[Clicio]

That’s exactly what I was getting at when I said:



I think the trend toward bigger trees reflects what we see in those masterpieces.

Exactly.

 

[Clicio]

But in all the examples you mentioned, size is a factor of time. That's not necessarily the case OP was complaining about, where trunk size in new trees seems to trump other fearures (nebari, fine twigging, etc)

This is what I have been saying.
It's weird this "let's go after the big stumps, and then we will see what happens ".

 

[Clicio]

Perhaps it's only a biased approach of mine; I like to see them grow, to see them thickening in the ground, to wire them while young, to understand which one will be a good small bonsai.
Do I like big bonsai? Yes, I do.
I've got a Dawn Redwood, a couple of big Shimpaku Junipers, an Eugenia , a Sweetgum Maple.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I've been watching the way - apparently fashionable - that people doing bonsai get all enthusiastic about big trunks with no branches, no radial roots, no interesting deadwood but...
Large.
Heavy.
Thick.
Some are literally ground trees freshly dug out from the ground, chopped down, and sold immediately.
Of course a big, impressive trunk, can be part of a good bonsai; what I question here is: what about the elegant, the tall, the flared, the literati, the forests, the small delicate flowering bonsai in a beautiful pot?
Nope. Not impressive enough.
I am talking about most new enthusiasts on the Internet groups.
For them, bigger is always better.

I sure hope the collective answer is “no!” My reasoning is: everything I’ve learned and read thus far supports ‘quality nebari’ over ‘stick’ or ‘pole’ in the ground… or worse, a thick branch popped off a tree, shoved into the soil, and voila! A thick tree that took ‘years to grow.’

 

[Carol 83]

Well, um, same is true for feminine trees. Women, particularly older women, tend to be drawn to delicate, fussy, or cutesy thin trunked trees. I've seem some skinny trunked trees that are pretty ugly...just sayin...

Hey now. I don't think I have any particularly delicate, fussy or cutesy trees. I do have some skinny trunked ones because I was dumb when I started out and bought whatever was cheap, guilty as charged there. Not going to admit to the "older woman" thing, age is relative.

 

[jason biggs]

check this one i just posted... sure the branching has years to go but most people are never going to get a trunk this large in their lifetime...