Why organic soil?

[Maiden69]

This powerful nebari would of been developed in field soil, in the ground. (not on a tile) Apparently a bunch of them were then placed in air pots and had been in the air pots for roughly 4 years before I snatched them up. the airpot had produced a very compacted dense mat of feeder roots. im not quite certain how much of the actual nebari was developed from being 4 years in the air pot, but I would suspect this is a mixture of ground and containerism. by folk that dont practice 'bonsai'

If you have access to the Rootpouch brand give them a try on any tree that you are developing to be a pre-bonsai. This is the kind of roots I get on all my trees, super dense and very radial. I wanted to try those air pots, but I think it will be hard keeping the root mass from not drying too much because of the high winds in my area.

 

[rockm]

It’s good to hear what is working for you. I’m in the same climate as you. I’m a beginner, but have been tinkering with a Trident Maple for five years or so. I’ve repotted it twice now, and this last time I also went with a slightly bigger pot. Initially I thought the pot might be too big, but I think it looks right to me. I also prefer some organic matter in there. I purchase premade "soil" mixes. I get a small bag of inorganic and mix with a small bag of an organic blend. I’ve got a lot to learn, but sounds like I have stumbled on something that works.

Not so fast You've had a tree for five years, repotted it almost every other year.

So the tree has had fresh soil every other year.

Not really enough time to gauge much of anything, other than tridents are extremely hardy trees that grow well...The problem with organics in soil is they decompose and deteriorate over time. That can take at least a couple of years, longer if you don't have freeze/thaw cycles.

 

[Colt Carson]

Not so fast You've had a tree for five years, repotted it almost every other year.

So the tree has had fresh soil every other year.

Not really enough time to gauge much of anything, other than tridents are extremely hardy trees that grow well...The problem with organics in soil is they decompose and deteriorate over time. That can take at least a couple of years, longer if you don't have freeze/thaw cycles.

It's not a common occurrence to get hard freezes here. And it’s probably my inexperience talking, but it’s hard for me to totally get away from some organic matter in the bonsai substrate. I’m thinking I should be repotting this tree every three years anyway, but I imagine an inspection of the roots when lifted out of the pot would be the true indicator. The amount of organic matter in this Maple’s pot would be small since it was a mixture of an organic bag with an inorganic bag. I kinda chuckle as I say this… there’s a little bit of everything in there. Akadama, Pumice, Black Lava, Turface Calcined Clay, Peat Moss, Small Fir Bark, and Vermiculite.

 

[dbonsaiw]

there’s a little bit of everything in there. Akadama, Pumice, Black Lava, Turface Calcined Clay, Peat Moss, Small Fir Bark, and Vermiculite.

There are so many details in bonsai that I try to keep things as simple as I can where I can. When it comes to soil, if I'm not sure why something is used in the soil I just don't use it. I'm mixing soil, not salad. My go to substrate is pumice. All things being equal, I'd maybe use 100% pumice. But they aren't equal and I have watering concerns - I have a day job and can't babysit my trees all day every day. So in goes some organics to maintain moisture. For this, my go to is pine bark. Pumice and bark and I'm set. I typically don't want potting soil or peat moss powder in my soil. Akadama isn't recommended for my climate. Vermiculite - that's in the category of "remind me why I am adding this?". Cation exchange aside, my trees don't seem to miss this ingredient. Finally, calcined clay - I get my mix from Bonsai Jack and their mix is pumice/clay/bark. Easy peezy.

Once you have your soil, then comes the harder part - properly watering and feeding your trees in accordance with your climate and soil choices (as well as species, stage of development etc.). If you could control the drainage, water retention and aeration, you could plant your trees in river pebbles or frosted flakes or whatever. OK, don't grow your trees in breakfast cereal, but you get the point. Soil is nothing but a medium in which to put your tree, water and nutrients. If the soil you chose combined with your watering/feeding habits is providing your tree with aeration, drainage and water retention you are on the right path.

 

[LuZiKui]

There are so many details in bonsai that I try to keep things as simple as I can where I can. When it comes to soil, if I'm not sure why something is used in the soil I just don't use it. I'm mixing soil, not salad. My go to substrate is pumice. All things being equal, I'd maybe use 100% pumice. But they aren't equal and I have watering concerns - I have a day job and can't babysit my trees all day every day. So in goes some organics to maintain moisture. For this, my go to is pine bark. Pumice and bark and I'm set. I typically don't want potting soil or peat moss powder in my soil. Akadama isn't recommended for my climate. Vermiculite - that's in the category of "remind me why I am adding this?". Cation exchange aside, my trees don't seem to miss this ingredient. Finally, calcined clay - I get my mix from Bonsai Jack and their mix is pumice/clay/bark. Easy peezy.

Once you have your soil, then comes the harder part - properly watering and feeding your trees in accordance with your climate and soil choices (as well as species, stage of development etc.). If you could control the drainage, water retention and aeration, you could plant your trees in river pebbles or frosted flakes or whatever. OK, don't grow your trees in breakfast cereal, but you get the point. Soil is nothing but a medium in which to put your tree, water and nutrients. If the soil you chose combined with your watering/feeding habits is providing your tree with aeration, drainage and water retention you are on the right path.

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes. Thanks for the tip, I'm going to start switching my plants over this weekend!

 

[Colt Carson]

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes. Thanks for the tip, I'm going to start switching my plants over this weekend!

If you go that route, just make sure you substitute skim milk for the water.

 

[August]

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes. Thanks for the tip, I'm going to start switching my plants over this weekend!

This was me last summer when my dumb ass decided to buy a 50 lb bag of turface...

 

[Cajunrider]

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes. Thanks for the tip, I'm going to start switching my plants over this weekend!

They are greaaaaaaat!

 

[BeepBeepBonsaiSheep]

This was me last summer when my dumb ass decided to buy a 50 lb bag of turface...

I got some #8822 and before that got a small bag of pumice

After reading the first 2 pages of this thread, I realize that with my desert climate, organic potting soil is prob the best for my material

 

[dbonsaiw]

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes.

They're greeeeeat!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

This thread looks like it was really fun and I saw some nice examples of tree roots in different mixes of media.

Yet gosh, I can’t believe I read the whole thing! It wasn’t until page three I realized the thread was misnamed… should have been Soil Wars - The Organic variation!

One thing about jumping in a thread late is there are some very nice points embedded in each thread. A couple points really caught my eye as especially valuable.

I think it was @ShadyStump who mentioned… inorganic medias are used for control. I would point out, perhaps unnecessarily, organic soil and Dolomitic soils have exceeding high CEC’s, which make it incredibly hard to mange the resultant strong growth when a tree is approaching refinement. This is the reason why many professionals use an inorganic mix, often with an akadama presence.….

The second point found myself reflecting on was buried in the tread…. One that @BobbyLane, I believe, mentioned. It was - Many folks tend to try to place a tree in a bonsai pot way too early compared to the tree’s stage of development. The rush to bonsai pot is plainly evident in a number trees I see posted on this thread… and to some extent in our study group.

It’s often a surface impression I get when reading these threads that many folks posting believe what is being used as media in their back yard is what is the very best for their areas and trees…. and perhaps they are right.

I try to look at the entire tree-media-pot-microclimate-human system. So I’m never exactly sure what I use is the best media for the exact stage of development for each type of tree in my backyard, but it is the only thing I’m using at the time! I’m invested in it… but only until I see convincing data otherwise.

Being of an inquisitive nature, I’m always on the lookout for factual data to give my practice a better result. This is very similar to what is happening where I volunteer. Always looking for the subtle shift, tailored to each tree.

Anyways, just a couple thoughts.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[BobbyLane]

Dont throw away your large off cuts guys, that 'sopping wet' organic soil you think is a hindrance can be a life saver!

 

[dbonsaiw]

I sort of skimmed your comment but I think the takeaway is I should be planting my trees in frosted flakes.

Here's an example. And the added sugars are really appreciated by the tree. Add banana for extra aeration.

Pic made with Stable Diffusion - no trees harmed in the making of this photo.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Never forget that traditional Japanese bonsai was performed on Japanese trees from Japanese moutains using Japanese soil in the Japanese climate with the influence of Japanese tradition and customs. The idea that a Bald Cypress or Live Oak grown in Louisiana or Las Vegas would use anything close to that used in Japan is unrealistic. Use what the bonsai people in your area use. I've always found it funny that the people that swear by inorganic soil are the most vocal on using organic fertilizer.

 

[Gabler]

Many folks tend to try to place a tree in a bonsai pot way too early compared to the tree’s stage of development. The rush to bonsai pot is plainly evident in a number trees I see posted on this thread… and to some extent in our study group.

Guilty. I’ve been migrating many of my collected trees out of bonsai pots into grow bags for further development. It looks ugly, but I’m seeing better growth.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Many folks tend to try to place a tree in a bonsai pot way too early compared to the tree’s stage of development.

The biggest challenge I have in bonsai comes to knowing what I don't know. I can study up on trees and technique all day long, but I won't really understand the timeline of bonsai development until I have more years invested in this. We all start off with this vague understanding that bonsais take many years to develop, but don't internalize this until we've actually gained the hands-on experience. A year is a very long time to a newbie. You need to be into this for at least a year to realize it isn't a lot of time in tree terms.

I find this issue creeps up in how we choose material as well. It took me two years to understand why the material I was working on is not actually the material I want to be working on. It comes down to not understanding that developing the straight stick in the dirt to what I want will take be a quarter century.

The closest I've come to a book-smart understanding of the development timeline was from studying Brian Van Fleet's trident maple progression thread. It was the first time I really appreciated what 10 years means in bonsai terms and what needs to get done before going into a pot.