Why organic soil?

[BobbyLane]

Potting soils sucks!! I wouldn't recommend anyone use it....one growing season in straight potting soil...there was not a single root above the cd at the beginning of the season.

Truth of the matter is that folks believe what they are told/sold and most don't do their own due diligence...

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I would never use 'straight' potting soil, even my stuff in the ground usually has some old bonsai mix thrown into the planting hole. But as a component sure I have no issues with it. having said that, the trees ive gotten from nurseries that were in straight organics often have produced very healthy radial root spreads, the type of root spreads that folks are trying to achieve with the fancy mixes. I feel like everything has its uses and experimentation is key as you say. But most like to be told what to do, then they run with it and dont deviate from that.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Potting soils sucks!! I wouldn't recommend anyone use it....one growing season in straight potting soil...there was not a single root above the cd at the beginning of the season.

Truth of the matter is that folks believe what they are told/sold and most don't do their own due diligence...

View attachment 474927

My stock answer is you may know what's "right" or what is not "supposed to work" , but you cannot tell me that which I have witnessed with my own eyes is not true.

 

[cmeg1]

Organics like potting soil…they arrive with dolomite lime and the ph is quite alright……..a mo th into tge grow and even worse,by Autumn,the ph is so wack by the peat decomposing to acidic…….then given an organic soil will buffer the ph quite well……..it is almost impossible to correct with you regular ph up/down liquid drops.

Organics can be quite complicated and very selective and ingredients to make sure a proper pH and then pH your water with every watering and you should be OK

If you’re using organic fertilizer on top of that with an organic phosphorus like bonemeal or something like that then you need mycorrhiza to transport the phosphorus to the roots otherwise in a regular salt fertilizer the mycorrhiza would be expelled for a pathogen by the roots because it is just not needed

Quite some natural things go on with organics and you can really get thibgs wrong.


On the other hand though

Organic fertilizers could be quite fun specially if you have access to rainwater and such like that.

Making fertilizer cakes and just go on the natural method with some inorganic soil.

just pouring nice rain water over the fertilizer cakes I’m actually gonna do that sometime.

I have asked access to rainwater about 200 gallons at all times and the pH is always about 6.0 6.1

Definitely by far will simplify the watering regime…….. And can be utilized for slower growth and higher photosynthesis more sugar more brix more phosphorus are in the roots and more natural processes

 

[Joe Dupre']

One thing to remember about organic soil components is that they are ORGANIC. In addition to holding onto fertilizer very well, the organics break down and add elements and minerals to the soil over time. Yes, they break down faster than inorganics, but I've never saw enough of that to find a big, sloppy, gooey mess in the bottom of my pots when repotting. I've only ever found a very thin layer of silt in my pots after 2-3 years. I keep my Bald Cypress in approx. 80% organics and drown them every day. After a year, water still drains well and doesn't pool up on the surface. Your results may differ in your climate. If you actually see different results, make your decisions based on that.

 

[ShadyStump]

Organics like potting soil…they arrive with dolomite lime and the ph is quite alright……..a mo th into tge grow and even worse,by Autumn,the ph is so wack by the peat decomposing to acidic…….then given an organic soil will buffer the ph quite well……..it is almost impossible to correct with you regular ph up/down liquid drops.

Organics can be quite complicated and very selective and ingredients to make sure a proper pH and then pH your water with every watering and you should be OK

If you’re using organic fertilizer on top of that with an organic phosphorus like bonemeal or something like that then you need mycorrhiza to transport the phosphorus to the roots otherwise in a regular salt fertilizer the mycorrhiza would be expelled for a pathogen by the roots because it is just not needed

Quite some natural things go on with organics and you can really get thibgs wrong.


On the other hand though

Organic fertilizers could be quite fun specially if you have access to rainwater and such like that.

Making fertilizer cakes and just go on the natural method with some inorganic soil.

just pouring nice rain water over the fertilizer cakes I’m actually gonna do that sometime.

I have asked access to rainwater about 200 gallons at all times and the pH is always about 6.0 6.1

Definitely by far will simplify the watering regime…….. And can be utilized for slower growth and higher photosynthesis more sugar more brix more phosphorus are in the roots and more natural processes

You are the resident mad genius of bonsai propagation, so I have no room to argue with anything you say.

I'll just bring it back to this:
Organic soil = Low maintenance (once established and settled of course)
Inorganic soil = High control regardless of stage

It's a trade-off, like most things, and subject to infinite variables.
At the end of the day, there is one law of decision making that never fails: if it's stupid, but works, it isn't stupid.
Conversely, if it's smart, but doesn't work, is it really all that smart?

 

[Colt Carson]

One thing to remember about organic soil components is that they are ORGANIC. In addition to holding onto fertilizer very well, the organics break down and add elements and minerals to the soil over time. Yes, they break down faster than inorganics, but I've never saw enough of that to find a big, sloppy, gooey mess in the bottom of my pots when repotting. I've only ever found a very thin layer of silt in my pots after 2-3 years. I keep my Bald Cypress in approx. 80% organics and drown them every day. After a year, water still drains well and doesn't pool up on the surface. Your results may differ in your climate. If you actually see different results, make your decisions based on that.

It’s good to hear what is working for you. I’m in the same climate as you. I’m a beginner, but have been tinkering with a Trident Maple for five years or so. I’ve repotted it twice now, and this last time I also went with a slightly bigger pot. Initially I thought the pot might be too big, but I think it looks right to me. I also prefer some organic matter in there. I purchase premade "soil" mixes. I get a small bag of inorganic and mix with a small bag of an organic blend. I’ve got a lot to learn, but sounds like I have stumbled on something that works.

 

[ChefB]

One thing to remember about organic soil components is that they are ORGANIC. In addition to holding onto fertilizer very well, the organics break down and add elements and minerals to the soil over time. Yes, they break down faster than inorganics, but I've never saw enough of that to find a big, sloppy, gooey mess in the bottom of my pots when repotting. I've only ever found a very thin layer of silt in my pots after 2-3 years. I keep my Bald Cypress in approx. 80% organics and drown them every day. After a year, water still drains well and doesn't pool up on the surface. Your results may differ in your climate. If you actually see different results, make your decisions based on that.

80% Hapi-gro 20% 8822?

 

[R0b]

I would never use 'straight' potting soil, even my stuff in the ground usually has some old bonsai mix thrown into the planting hole. But as a component sure I have no issues with it. having said that, the trees ive gotten from nurseries that were in straight organics often have produced very healthy radial root spreads, the type of root spreads that folks are trying to achieve with the fancy mixes. I feel like everything has its uses and experimentation is key as you say. But most like to be told what to do, then they run with it and dont deviate from that.

I think that the development of root quality from a bonsai perspective isn’t so much about the soil used. Especially in the context of nursery stock it is more about planting depth. Deep planting leads to root curving upward. Field grown nursery stock is often dug up as seedlings and planted in a furrow leading to a narrow downward oriented root system.

 

[BobbyLane]

Not quite sure I get you, the roots here are in perfect condition to make the transition towards bonsai techniques

 

[R0b]

Not quite sure I get you, the roots here are in perfect condition to make the transition towards bonsai techniques
View attachment 477377View attachment 477378

If when increasing the potsize the tree is put at the bottom of the pot the structural roots will make upward curves. If a tree is too long in a small pot too long they will circle the trunk.
Your example might have groundlayered in the nursery container.

 

[BobbyLane]

If when increasing the potsize the tree is put at the bottom of the pot the structural roots will make upward curves. If a tree is too long in a small pot too long they will circle the trunk.
Your example might have groundlayered in the nursery container.

Possibly thats what happens. Its what I look for when selecting nursery stock, I have many such examples.

 

[Joe Dupre']

80% Hapi-gro 20% 8822?

The truth is I really don't know. I put some of whatever I have on hand.......HapiGro, old bonsai soil, some of the pine bark fines and DE fines, a bit of leaf mold, etc. Bald cypress is not too particular about soil for its growing-out needs. I basically use that same mix for most of my collected trees for the first year or two. I may add a scoop or two of 8822 according to the situation. Organics will not spontaneously morph into a slimy, anerobic mess. They give you plenty of warning so you can repot into a more suitable mix at the next repotting.

 

[coltranem]

I have been using organics for trees in development. Typically 60% organic with the remainder pumic or perlite. This is a crab apple that was growing in this mix in a 2 gallon nursery container. It was planted on a plastic divider and was root pruned every 2 years.

 

[BobbyLane]

This powerful nebari would of been developed in field soil, in the ground. (not on a tile) Apparently a bunch of them were then placed in air pots and had been in the air pots for roughly 4 years before I snatched them up. the airpot had produced a very compacted dense mat of feeder roots. im not quite certain how much of the actual nebari was developed from being 4 years in the air pot, but I would suspect this is a mixture of ground and containerism. by folk that dont practice 'bonsai'

 

[ChefB]

The truth is I really don't know. I put some of whatever I have on hand.......HapiGro, old bonsai soil, some of the pine bark fines and DE fines, a bit of leaf mold, etc. Bald cypress is not too particular about soil for its growing-out needs. I basically use that same mix for most of my collected trees for the first year or two. I may add a scoop or two of 8822 according to the situation. Organics will not spontaneously morph into a slimy, anerobic mess. They give you plenty of warning so you can repot into a more suitable mix at the next repotting.

I’m in your same area and was curious about your ratios for deciduous, coniferous and BC with 8822. So this helps. I am wondering how often you water say a 50/50 mix of hapi/8822 6” deep in our summers?

 

[BobbyLane]

I feel like watering is personal to your micro climate. if one has a south facing garden and the other has a north facing one, they could live in the same area and have different watering needs.

 

[ChefB]

I feel like watering is personal to your micro climate. if one has a south facing garden and the other has a north facing one, they could live in the same area and have different watering needs.

Your feelings can, and will lie to you. Just kidding though. Just trying to get an idea. I don’t think I would need 2x/day watering in that mix with say an elm in our summers but that’s why I’m asking @Joe Dupre'. Where are you @BobbyLane? UK? It would seem strange for me to ask you about watering habits. Thanks for the input though. I love your trees. I’m starting to be able pick your trees out of the images that are displayed on the Home Screen. You definitely have your style.

 

[BobbyLane]

In my climate and soil mixes I could water an elm once a day if its in a deep training pot, similar to the plastic terra pot I posted above, in the heat of summer. Im south facing, my balcony is a hot box in the summer, I can water even 2 or 3 times and thirsty elms, beeches, hornbeams will lap it up.

Thanks, ive sold most of my trees, but I still like to look at my old trees, so have posted most here in the gallery.

 

[nuttiest]

I think my trees use only 3 tblsp water / day average until May.

 

[dbonsaiw]

But as a component sure I have no issues with it.

I will run with this. Had a little overwintering mishap back in January with all the crazy winds. Long story short, large nursery pots with potting soil where dumped onto part of my mulch pile. Rain and watering pushed the potting soil into the pots of my hornbeams. I dug one of these guys out of the mulch pile last night and was tempted to repot seeing the potting soil muck up my mix. After reading so many posts on the potting soil issue, I decided against a repot and will simply leave it be this year. After all, how much potting soil could have been pushed into there (famous last words?).