Who gets credit for a bonsai tree?

[Wood]

Intensives at a pro's garden also really muddy the waters of provenance, if you're trying to track every single person who worked on a tree. A multi-year student might leave their tree at the garden and work on it every time they visit, but in between, other students will also work on the tree. Do all of them get credit too? If all I did on a tree was defoliate a trident one time, should my name go on the list?

Different scenario: If I do ten years of work on a tree, and then ask Bjorn or Sergio to find an exhibition pot and do the final show prep before Nationals, who should get the credit? The pro is the last person who styled the tree, but their contribution to the totality of work on the tree is relatively minor

I'd love some of this information readily accessible but I don't have any good ideas on how to actually execute that during a show

 

[bonsaiwood]

I definitely understand and empathize with this perspective, but how realistic is it? A professional's daily fees run $500-$750 plus travel and expenses.

Not for the average Joe hobbyist (like me), I am sure we can agree on that. One question that comes to mind (for my own learning), do artists/pros prefer to work exclusively with clients willing to pay top dollar to elevate trees? Sounds like one premium slab of cheddar and a case of reserve Cabernet for a day’s work. Yikes.

I've never really had a hard time figuring out who has worked on what tree either.

I have not figured this out yet but it seems to be coming along with time and exposure to more examples.

 

[Gabler]

I’m confused as to whether you feel it is important because

A) you don’t know who the primary artist is and you feel like this knowledge would be valuable for you personally

Or

B) you think it is a disservice to the artist that they are not receiving visible recognition in the very specific form of being included on the display card next to a tree in an exhibit

If this issue is more about the first point well then I’d say it really isn’t that hard to find this information if you care to. Ask the tree owner and if you don’t know how to get in touch with them, ask the exhibition director. I’d be shocked if you could find a major exhibition where the director would not be willing to help you learn about the provenance of a tree unless the owner was explicitly opposed to it which is not something I’ve ever experienced myself.

If the concern here is more about the second point and you are raising this argument on behalf of the artists that may not be receiving recognition I would say you should ask one of these unknown shadow artists whether they agree with this concern. Because the whole conversation would be a lot more compelling if there was actually someone in the position of the “victim” you are standing up for. My guess is most of them feel like their contributions to the trees are very much common knowledge and no “credit” is being lost by not being on the little placard next to the tree.

It's both.

I'm not saying the director of a show wouldn't help me learn the provenance of the trees. I'm saying it would be easier for both of us if everything were labelled to begin with. It's the same reasoning behind food labels. Not everyone is going to read all of that information, but, to the people who care, it's important.

Regarding the artists, I put the question out to any field growers here whether they would like more credit for their contribution to bonsai practice.

 

[Gabler]

I definitely understand and empathize with this perspective, but how realistic is it? A professional's daily fees run $500-$750 plus travel and expenses. If you're spending that much on pro work on the tree, it's probably dramatically more expensive than that, and you have a sense of what pros produce difference kinds of work.

I've never really had a hard time figuring out who has worked on what tree either. It's a good topic of conversation with other attendees, but I never treat it as more than idle gossip

You don't need to hire an artist to follow his work and emulate his style. Not all of us have the cash on hand to pay for individual lessons, but we can still take inspiration from great work. It becomes more difficult to follow an artist when none of his work is labelled.

 

[Gabler]

Intensives at a pro's garden also really muddy the waters of provenance, if you're trying to track every single person who worked on a tree. A multi-year student might leave their tree at the garden and work on it every time they visit, but in between, other students will also work on the tree. Do all of them get credit too? If all I did on a tree was defoliate a trident one time, should my name go on the list?

Different scenario: If I do ten years of work on a tree, and then ask Bjorn or Sergio to find an exhibition pot and do the final show prep before Nationals, who should get the credit? The pro is the last person who styled the tree, but their contribution to the totality of work on the tree is relatively minor

I'd love some of this information readily accessible but I don't have any good ideas on how to actually execute that during a show

We don't need perfection. We need a reasonable effort to share some basic information about the tree's provenance. If the tree lived at a nursery where dozens of apprentices worked on it, just credit "the staff of John Doe Nursery."

If a professional helped with show prep, you could simply say, "Pot selected by John Doe."

I'm not really seeing these examples as problems. To me, they're good examples of why we should have a list of credits for a tree.

 

[leatherback]

I'm not really seeing these examples as problems. To me, they're good examples of why we should have a list of credits for a tree.

Most shows are happy when people submit a tree, and aim at making this hurdle free. This is building hurdles: We tried once to include the maker of the pot in the details. More than half of the people contributing to the show refused to provide the information.

Next to this, these sort of things put more work onto a show organizer. Once would need to verify information and spelling of names, as well as lay out the infocard. And of course, the labels become even more obtrusive in a show. And QR codes are not the solution because on the one hand it requires people to have a phone with internet to access the information and the organizers have yet another thing to put together in a proper way.

Lots of shows have tried, and many have conme to the realization that is is a lot of hassle, which raises foten as many eyebrows at it pleases people.

 

[MrBonsai19]

It's both.

I'm not saying the director of a show wouldn't help me learn the provenance of the trees. I'm saying it would be easier for both of us if everything were labelled to begin with. It's the same reasoning behind food labels. Not everyone is going to read all of that information, but, to the people who care, it's important.

Regarding the artists, I put the question out to any field growers here whether they would like more credit for their contribution to bonsai practice.

I certainly like the idea of having more context for trees in a show. I would personally rather that instead of trying to list all the “credits” somewhere within the display that instead an opportunity to present an “artist statement” would be much more educational. It’s an idea Ryan Neil has advocated for so not my own notion but I would love to hear from the artist as to what inspired the major styling choices.

And for trees that are styled by professionals on behalf of a client the artist statement could provide an opportunity to share that context as well.

The pacific bonsai expo show book has a space for this that each exhibitor can fill out and many of the exhibitors that have worked with professionals for styling will add that context in the artist statement entry within the show book.

 

[rockm]

You don't need to hire an artist to follow his work and emulate his style. Not all of us have the cash on hand to pay for individual lessons, but we can still take inspiration from great work. It becomes more difficult to follow an artist when none of his work is labelled.

From what I’ve seen professional “artists” don’t really Have as strong a hand in things as you may think in designing clients’ trees. They do a lot of things but a lot of what they do is recommending action and occasionally diving in and bending things etc. Idon’t think most anyone brings them in and says “design this for me”. Ain’t what’s going on.

Some people hire them for a day to get a different perspective on the trees they have. Some bring them in to HELP design and shape a tree. If you’re hiring a professional you probably have trees that have been worked for years. You’re mostly NOT working from design scratch

I also believe That some people are already shy for security reasons about exhibiting. Asking for more specific information can be seen as a bit invasive

If your interested in following an artist find them in insta or facebook or other social. Most of them are present there

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I definitely understand and empathize with this perspective, but how realistic is it? A professional's daily fees run $500-$750 plus travel and expenses.

Way back in the 1990's, I used to help out with some friends who were senior members of the Midwest Bonsai Society. Every year they would bring in a master for about a week to work on their trees. The master would spend a day in each person's garden, working on trees that the owners wanted help with. In some cases the owner wasn't even home - it was just two of us working on someone else's trees.

That said, these people used to show their trees at exhibitions, and never once mentioned anything about having a master work on them...