White needles on entire jbp

[BeebsBonsai]

Not gonna lie. Im ashamed of myself. Its sad and depressing to see a tree die. Im hoping it can throw buds and i can protect them well all year.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Adamantium, its possible that your tree will make it. My tree exhibited what yours is doing, but last year. Fertilize wel all spring summer and fall, dont trim, dont repot, dont do anything. I repotted in spring, and it needed it bad. Im sure thats probably what did it.

Also, in the short term, last year chelated iron, sprinkled on the soil seemed to produce more green long enough for buds to push. Id also enoculate the soil with a systemic fungicide, which i didnt do, sometime before winter.

Ohh and also, mine was in the dark garage so dont do that. Just assume no work, send a needle to a local testing facility to make sure its a needle cast issue, and treat for that.

 

[sorce]

@Adair M ! Love this!

Fuck yes to deciphering these it depends!

Tying a tree or not! Huge it depends!

On a broad scale...it seems the only people who have success with Akadama...are people who realize what is is and does...
And utilize it as a VERY PARTICULAR PART of the SYSTEM of its use...

Which includes other Boon teachings, like Soji!

This os why Boon stidents are successful, where others are not.

Boon student are aware every fall, of the condition they may encounter in spring, and wether or not they will need to repot it in spring for the Following winter....
When the "mush" becomes that which freezes to solidly, and may crack a bag pot.

But I note people who can afford Boon, also afford Excellent winter protection....

Or as is always in my head... Judy's use of Akadama and soil never freezing.
(I also note rapid development by Judy)

I haven't used APL but I have held Judy's mix and This proper round lava, that pumice, and the pumice I have seem quite as "safe" as DE to freeze....where there is simply too much Air pockets to caise any dangerous compaction freezing of roots. (Except in a bag pot or other with greatly restricted upward movement.

Eeee ...maybe Bonhe use of degrading twine can be of use to AKADAMA FREEZERS particularly.

As I understand this... Friction amd cutting of roots....

An excellent point as related to being tied in or not......

Tgis is why I have so much Trust in mindlessly trusting Boon...In total! Just as Walter says "in total" is required..

These entire systems work!

But they are NOT or rarely interchangeable.

Sorce

 

[Dav4]

Ohh and also, mine was in the dark garage so dont do that. Just assume no work, send a needle to a local testing facility to make sure its a needle cast issue, and treat for that.

That's not the reason for your tree's condition. I kept many of my trees, including pines and conifers, in a dark garage, frozen in mulch on the cement floor, for 3-4 months every year for a decade... didn't lose one during that time, except for a few maples to rodent damage. Bill Valavanis keeps his world class trees in a garage in upstate NY, through the winter, with a temperature around 27 F. Dormant evergreens- specifically those cold hardy species that are being maintained at or under 35 F- don't need light.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

That's not the reason for your tree's condition. I kept many of my trees, including pines and conifers, in a dark garage, frozen in mulch on the cement floor, for 3-4 months every year for a decade... didn't lose one during that time, except for a few maples to rodent damage. Bill Valavanis keeps his world class trees in a garage in upstate NY, through the winter, with a temperature around 27 F. Dormant evergreens- specifically those cold hardy species that are being maintained at or under 35 F- don't need light.

Sorry might have misspoke there. I didnt keep it in a cold snough garage. It probably regularly broke 40 in there.

Alex

 

[BeebsBonsai]

So the consensus is this tree is dead. Could it be freeze damage or sunburn after the repot? What i dont get is the tree is sucking up water as if it didnt miss a beat in the repot. Do i scrap the tree now or give it a month to see if it might break a few tenuous buds?

 

[0soyoung]

Seeing is believing, right?

How do you know the tree is sucking up water as opposed to the dry air pulling it directly out of the substrate?

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Seeing is believing, right?

How do you know the tree is sucking up water as opposed to the dry air pulling it directly out of the substrate?

Valid point and astute observation. I am making an assumption, but one from my observations. I have the same substrate in that pot as i do with all of my pines, and this tree is in a larger pot than most of them are. The trees beginning to push new growth show the same rate of water usage/evaporation as this one. It could be that all substrates are evaporating similarly, but i would assume the trees utilization contibutes to the loss of water in the substrate as well, as it has in the past.

Seeing is believing though and only time will tell. If i see all needles drop and no new growth ill understand its dead. And probably shed a tear or two extrating its remains.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@BeebsBonsai - twice I've experienced something similar. Once it was clearly allowing the tree to get too dry, once when I took a JBP that had started to grow in the dark well house, and plunked it on top the bench in full, brilliant sun, with no shade. Bang, instant sun burn. Bleached the top sides of all the needles white. Usually I move trees from dark to shade, then 5 or more days later move them to sun. For maples to half sun.

JBP is not reliably hardy in Chicago area, it may survive a mild or moderate winter, but every 5 years or so we'll get a winter that will kill them dead. You must protect JBP.

@sorce - you know I love you, but i will only agree that many trees we protect more than we need to, but it is a species by species judgement. Some trees simply are not hardy here and need protection.

Later I'll go back and re-read your posts on this and talk it out with you in person. We might not be all that far apart.

 

[sorce]

Some trees simply are not hardy here and need protection.

I absolutely agree....

I think THESE must be properly Greenhouses and climate controlled...

The garage can be safe for them but o2r is not sustainable ..

And everything local only needs the ground...and perhaps wind protection...
But I doubt that too...
In that I only think wind protection is necessary for "confused" trees...and/or confused people!

Sorce

 

[BeebsBonsai]

@BeebsBonsai - twice I've experienced something similar. Once it was clearly allowing the tree to get too dry, once when I took a JBP that had started to grow in the dark well house, and plunked it on top the bench in full, brilliant sun, with no shade. Bang, instant sun burn. Bleached the top sides of all the needles white. Usually I move trees from dark to shade, then 5 or more days later move them to sun. For maples to half sun.

JBP is not reliably hardy in Chicago area, it may survive a mild or moderate winter, but every 5 years or so we'll get a winter that will kill them dead. You must protect JBP.

@sorce - you know I love you, but i will only agree that many trees we protect more than we need to, but it is a species by species judgement. Some trees simply are not hardy here and need protection.

Later I'll go back and re-read your posts on this and talk it out with you in person. We might not be all that far apart.

In both cases, did you lose your trees? Also, would temps below 35 degrees and short bouts of artificial sunlight be better if i have no better option than overwintering in a garage?

 

[Hyn Patty]

After your tree was indoors all winter, it could be sunburn. Which since it can't just shed the needles and grow all new ones, may kill it. But I wouldn't just give up on it. If you give it a while and keep the watering a little on the light side, it may produce new buds. You should never move plants from indoors to full sun suddenly. Always take a week or two to ease them out into dappled light first and slowly into sunlight so they have time to adjust. Good luck with it!

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Does it mean anything good that this tree is still holding on to some of its needles? Some do strip off with the sloghtest touch, but others appear to have a strong attachment. Mostly those towards the tips of the branches. Still hoping and praying.

 

[davetree]

“The folks in Minnesota have witnessed better health when left out....I have never used it...
How much worse can winter get?”

Who told you this ? Someone on this forum ? Everyone I know in Minnesota winters their trees inside here -

 

[GGB]

@BeebsBonsai if that tree were mine I would've pronounced it dead months ago. All those needles are toast ATLEAST. but, if you feel like hanging onto it and watering it, there are zombie pines. I think it's vance wood? maybe?... who had mugo pines return from the grave a season and a half after appparently "dying". If you feel like tending to it, who knows. But you'll have to figure out what killed it in the first place and change that

 

[ysrgrathe]

On a broad scale...it seems the only people who have success with Akadama...are people who realize what is is and does...
And utilize it as a VERY PARTICULAR PART of the SYSTEM of its use...

Which includes other Boon teachings, like Soji!

This is why Boon students are successful, where others are not.
Sorce

Great point Sorce. I suspect Boon also repots more frequently than most people do, which likely makes a big difference -- even a soft substrate never breaks down much if you repot yearly (deciduous) or every 2-3 years (HBR coniferous).

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In both cases, did you lose your trees? Also, would temps below 35 degrees and short bouts of artificial sunlight be better if i have no better option than overwintering in a garage?

Both trees died. I still have 10 cork bark JBP, so I still have them. My longest in my care was 18 years, my current oldest is about 10 years. So I can keep them going.

I actually do winter them in a dark well house. This space is below ground, and has no light. Have been doing so for over 30 years, and generally it works pretty well. The temperature is more stable than a garage would be, but I see no long term decline from lack of winter sun.

Key to make wintering without lights work is that the temperature must be below 40 F preferably at 35 F or colder all winter. Even a few hours at a time above 40 F can lead to trees waking up if it happens too often. If the trees start to wake up, they start burning stored sugars, and this is when light is needed.
In a garage temperature is not as stable. I would consider putting the tree in a styrofoam cooler, perhaps with one or two partially full plastic jugs with water for thermal mass. The water will keep the inside of the cooler warm when temperatures plunge, and cooler during hot spells. Also get a thermometer, put it in the cooler and keep track of the temperature. That way you will know, rather than guess whether it is cold enough.

Cork Bark JBP in a pot seems only hardy to maybe +15 F, for safety I try to not let cork bark JBP experience much below +23F (-5 C)

Normal form of JBP is probably a lot more cold hardy, but in a pot I would still not go much below +10F (-12C). In the ground JBP is in theory hardy to -10 F, but I'm not sure if it's really is reliable to that.

 

[Dav4]

Both trees died. I still have 10 cork bark JBP, so I still have them. My longest in my care was 18 years, my current oldest is about 10 years. So I can keep them going.

I actually do winter them in a dark well house. This space is below ground, and has no light. Have been doing so for over 30 years, and generally it works pretty well. The temperature is more stable than a garage would be, but I see no long term decline from lack of winter sun.

Key to make wintering without lights work is that the temperature must be below 40 F preferably at 35 F or colder all winter. Even a few hours at a time above 40 F can lead to trees waking up if it happens too often. If the trees start to wake up, they start burning stored sugars, and this is when light is needed.
In a garage temperature is not as stable. I would consider putting the tree in a styrofoam cooler, perhaps with one or two partially full plastic jugs with water for thermal mass. The water will keep the inside of the cooler warm when temperatures plunge, and cooler during hot spells. Also get a thermometer, put it in the cooler and keep track of the temperature. That way you will know, rather than guess whether it is cold enough.

Cork Bark JBP in a pot seems only hardy to maybe +15 F, for safety I try to not let cork bark JBP experience much below +23F (-5 C)

Normal form of JBP is probably a lot more cold hardy, but in a pot I would still not go much below +10F (-12C). In the ground JBP is in theory hardy to -10 F, but I'm not sure if it's really is reliable to that.

What Leo said. Fwiw, my one big JBP saw many nights below 0 F mulched into the north side of a small hill in SE MA. It's seen single digits here in GA close to 10 times over the last nine winters with just some leaves thrown over the pot. I believe they are very prone to wind burn when their soil is frozen, so siting outside during the winter is important.

 

[chansen]

And if trees wake up and start burning sugars, they need light (as stated above) and water. Did you water the tree over the winter? I winter in a shed/greenhouse, keep the inside temp. around 36, and water roughly once a week. More if it gets warm.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Dav4 - you hit a key point, I am somewhat cavalier talking about setting my hardy trees on the ground for winter and forgetting about them, but actually I really do think it through on a species by species, case by case basis. Some I move to under my benches to keep them out of the wind. Winter wind can dehydrate branches quickly.