Where do you want to see a big PBE/Nationals level show?

[Hartinez]

What do I want to see?

3 days, NYC Javits Center, two floors filled with rows and rows and rows of the best trees in the world.

A vendor area so big they have a cool down station because people get exhausted just trying to walk it.

A dozen of the worlds top pros holding workshops with fantastic material available to those who signed up.

A free t-shirt with admission fee.

Beer stations throughout.

ah well, a guy can dream.

BEER STATIONS.

 

[Ruddigger]

BEER STATIONS.

Now we’re getting to the real issues.

 

[Hartinez]

Now we’re getting to the real issues.

Tiki Drinks would also be dope.

 

[WEI]

I think exactly this. Well put.

Our local show "peoples choice award" never goes to the actual best "bonsai" as we know it, but always goes to the tree that is flowering, or a mildly well done forest. Those types of trees seem to spark an emotion in people that for us bonsai folks just doesn't spark.

To be honest, I listed Sergio and John as examples of people who should hold there own exhibition because I love there trees, style and they have just enough thoughtfulness to play with ideas in a gallery setting. They could both easily carry a show for non bonsai folks on their own. No problem. But I also have plans in the works to put on my own, albeit small, art show here in Abq or in Santa Fe that gives me the opportunity to present, collaborate and discuss this art as just that, an art that can be expressive in so many ways. Not as a bonsai show, but as an art show. its something I've been considering for a while now, and I just recently started laying the ground work for what this could look like in the next 2-3 years. So much of this discussion in my head and discussions I have been having with other local artists and gallery owners, stems from the culturally unique nature of northern New Mexico and the very deep seeded connections with the landscape and its people dating back centuries and centuries. the Good and bad. Exactly what this manifests into, im not entirely sure, but ive begun putting pen to paper to organize my thoughts so when its time to make a statement or announce what it is im attempting, it should at least have a mildly cohesive theme. It may not end up being this world class bonsai event, but it gives small trees in pots an opportunity to weave a story that traditional 2 dimensional or even 3 dimensional art just can't tell.

Bonsai on there own, with traditional rules, and display techniques don't and in many ways, just can't, address those themes I referenced, but in collaboration with other artists, mediums, senses, spaces it can absolutely delve into realms this art hasn't before.

I think one of the biggest hangups with this type of show would be money. Most art shows also sell the art they are showing. I wouldn't be selling my trees, but would probably need to cover any costs of artists I collaborated with or even gallery fees if Im showing at a place with a good reputation. Ive got ideas on my work around though!!

I still LOVE bonsai shows and will continue to go to them and practice at my highest level. If I show trees outside of a bonsai show setting, it is so important to me that I do respect what would traditionally make a great tree, it just doesn't necessarily have to be a world class tree outside of the bonsai world to make a statement.

Also, Banana taped to a wall? I have no idea, but it was in an art gallery wasn't it? lol.

creating an exhibit about that historically cultural connection to the landscape and environment is a sea change when it comes to show format - we need to be less insular as practitioners and exhibitors. keep us updated as the idea progresses!

also re: banana, yes, it was in an art gallery. it was titled “Comedian” and created in 3 “sets” of bananas duct-taped to walls. They sold for $120k apiece, drew enormous crowds, and I believe one was donated to the Guggenheim Museum for display. sounds ridiculous, but such is the power of artistic intent over aesthetics

 

[Hartinez]

creating an exhibit about that historically cultural connection to the landscape and environment is a sea change when it comes to show format - we need to be less insular as practitioners and exhibitors. keep us updated as the idea progresses!

I will! Lots to iron out, but I’m motivated.

also re: banana, yes, it was in an art gallery. it was titled “Comedian” and created in 3 “sets” of bananas duct-taped to walls. They sold for $120k apiece, drew enormous crowds, and I believe one was donated to the Guggenheim Museum for display. sounds ridiculous, but such is the power of artistic intent over aesthetics

very powerful indeed. Total bullshit, but very powerful.

 

[Shogun610]

Like a Taikan-ten kind of show? Would be cool for sure. Probably harder to put on I bet. Was that what the Artisans cup was supposed to be, that turned out to be a huge money sink for Ryan Neil.

You should not

and ultimately pros can do what ever they please.

Sure pros can do whatever they want but it goes back to my statement before that there should be a show where it’s pro only trees and amateur trees and the rule is , no outside work but your own.

 

[yenling83]

I think the big counterpoint to more workshops is capacity. Bonsai Central jammed 17 workshops into a 3-day weekend. If you can fit 8 people into each workshop (which is a lot), that's only 136 spaces for the entire weekend. The PBE was somewhere around 1600 tickets, right? That doesn't count the logistics issue of sourcing all that material too.

Bigger/nerdier seminars would be really fun and scale easily for larger audiences. There's a bunch of people out there who have very niche and deep knowledge, and people attending an expo are the ideal audience for it. I'm kinda bummed that I missed Bill V's presentation on classical bonsai art, that's a topic that kinda hard to research. Kristy Majieske is running a column in the ABS journal on mythology in Asian art -- that'd be another great topic

Great point Wood! I think you may have changed my mind on the impact of adding workshops-as 136 spaces is not moving the needle tremendously. And the amount of effort required to make all that happen is crazy.

 

[River's Edge]

I don’t want to hijack the PBE thread anymore than it has been, and it is a wonderful show in every aspect. But where do YOU want to see a Nationals/PBE level show? And what do you want to see at it? Curated vendors? All the vendors? How many exhibitor trees? What about workshops, special guests? What would make you really really want to attend? How do we make this a show big enough for multiple thousands of people want to meet? Including international attendees? Or maybe it is the nature of bonsai folk that they prefer not to gather in places with lots of people.

I have a few great bonsai friends who have never attended PBE from either lack of interest (one couple prefers the Bonsai Rendezvous in Santa Nella I believe which is all workshops) and another friend tonal showsaid they needed ‘another reason besides PBE to make the trip’.

I would love to see a PNW show. I am biased, that is also where I live lol! But that also means being able to volunteer to make it happen. I would also want food delivery/catering/multiple food truck options, or be close enough to food people can pop out for a bite and come back.

I would also love to see a Socal show (excuse to visit family and friends).

I feel a national show will only be successful with a truly nationally recognized destination for location. if the ultimate goal is to gain a larger participation for both vendor support and providing the infrastructure to attract visitors. iI higher levels of visitor participation is to be achieved I believe the locations do need to provide other reasons for visiting the area. San Francisco Bay Area meets those considerations for most people. Plus it has already proven that it can generate the level of volunteer support. The cooperation with alternating East West is a key to continued success and bringing the Bonsai community together. Regional shows can play a large role in growing the base and improving the quality of Bonsai across North America. Workshops I believe have limited value for the clientele that a high level national show needs to attract. And they add considerably to the cost and complexity of organizing a National show! I would suggest that they are a difficult aspect to support financially and historically a loss leader at most conventions.
I have nothing but admiration for the organizers that have accomplished so much over the first two versions of the PBE.

In the East I am sure others can think of a few major destination areas that would appeal from a wider participation point of view. The balance is can a major show afford the cost of the location. Is there a nearby smaller centre that is affordable but close enough to the major attractions. Thus providing the other reasons for a trip including significant others.

""Ok that isn’t bonsai related but people gotta eat I have attended shows where they put out a huge sandwich order and all vendors have to do is fill out a slip of paper and lunch appears.""

I just returned from a fairly large ( non bonsai) show! Held in the George Brown Convention Centre ( Houston ) My wife is a quilter and had a quilt juried in to thee Houston International Quilt festival. The show took 11 football fields for the Vendors and Show Displays combined! Three football fields area for the Quilt Shows and Eight football fields for the vendors display. The food available for attendees was organized as follows. First off the building has five major restaurants, plus some food kiosks ( Starbucks type) Within the show and vendor areas itself additional food contractors set up food kiosks. One simply lined up at their booth purchased and went to a table area. One example was a " Chick Fit" booth. Simple and effective. Limited menus but a variety of kiosks.

One Caveat: for this to work the demand must be high! Our expectations need to match the scalability of the project! Given the number of visitors expected for Bonsai shows, I would pack a lunch each day if vending.

 

[Carol 83]

Illinois has a very active bonsai club though it probably needs a lot of help to drum up numbers. Unfortunately I heard Bonsai Central had a stellar vendor room meant for a PBE number of attendees and they had less than 200 attend.

It was a good show and I got to meet @NaoTK .

 

[MHBonsai]

Nashville has big things happening. Great venues, local active clubs, within 4 hours of St Luis, Atlanta, and North Carolina clubs. Under 8 hours from Florida, Chicago, Cincinnati, etc etc. Good airport and a tourist destination city….

And local bonsai professionals local. Could be something special.

 

[johng]

The best and biggest shows I have ever attended were the Carolina Bonsai Expos held at the NC Arboretum in Asheville, NC....a regional event. For the last several years the weekend crowds were 6-7k+(with the vast majority being general public). I suspect that is 3-4X the visitation of any single national bonsai event. 15 clubs were involved from PA to Alabama. There was a club competition element as well as individual. Creativity and a move away from Japanese style displays were strongly encouraged. It was also timed to take advantage of the leaf peeper audience...seems like a natural tie. I suspect even the Bonsai as Fine Art show held in Asheville a year ago had more visitors that some of these national efforts.

In my opinion, as long as these shows, especially the US National show continue to copy/mimic Japanese shows there will always be a limited audience and limited appreciation outside of Japan. If you want the public to get more involved the show needs to be designed to appeal to their taste, experiences, and expectations. I am ready to see a show that is entirely non Asian... No scrolls, no bamboo dividers, no imported trees!, no Asian ceramics... Creative displays that highlight American culture, material, and experience...

 

[Colorado]

Hmm….I have to say, I do not really understand the desire to “break away” from the Japanese model and make something “uniquely American”, or whatever. I think we should be leaning in MORE to the traditional model, not trying to break away from it.

I am pretty sure that the folks in Japan know a thing or two about good bonsai…..

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hartinez]

Hmm….I have to say, I do not really understand the desire to “break away” from the Japanese model and make something “uniquely American”, or whatever. I think we should be leaning in MORE to the traditional model, not trying to break away from it.

I am pretty sure that the folks in Japan know a thing or two about good bonsai…..

Just my 2 cents.

I’m pretty sure also, the Chinese knew a thing or two about good penjing and the Japanese took it and made it uniquely Japanese. Mind you, that model is not new for Japanese culture as a whole, but you get my point.

As a bonsai obsessed person, I’m all for bonsai shows as they are with tweaks to accommodate people se needs accordingly. Food, space, geography. Etc. etc

But we should absolutely be pushing the art form to be unique and fresh or else it just becomes a replicable craft.

 

[bwaynef]

Sure pros can do whatever they want but it goes back to my statement before that there should be a show where it’s pro only trees and amateur trees and the rule is , no outside work but your own.

This is pretty limiting, in that we need to start thinking about multi-generational trees. If all work must be by the one submitting the tree, the quality is seriously limited. It would, more importantly, kill the bonsai economy.

 

[Ruddigger]

This is pretty limiting, in that we need to start thinking about multi-generational trees. If all work must be by the one submitting the tree, the quality is seriously limited. It would, more importantly, kill the bonsai economy.

That’s a good point.

 

[johng]

Hmm….I have to say, I do not really understand the desire to “break away” from the Japanese model and make something “uniquely American”, or whatever. I think we should be leaning in MORE to the traditional model, not trying to break away from it.

I am pretty sure that the folks in Japan know a thing or two about good bonsai…..

Just my 2 cents.

It is not art if you are just copying and mimicking... If the goal is to make bonsai more appealing to the Western masses there needs to be a better connection to those folks.

 

[BrianBay9]

It is not art if you are just copying and mimicking... If the goal is to make bonsai more appealing to the Western masses there needs to be a better connection to those folks.

I don't know any artists that make art for a particular audience. They make the art that's in themselves.

 

[Hartinez]

I don't know any artists that make art for a particular audience. They make the art that's in themselves.

This is a bit of tired trope. You are right that art comes from a deeper place in our “soul” or “inner self” or whatever you wanna call it but I know plenty of artists who make art for a particular market. Happens all the time. The biggest disservice art schools provide is a lack of branding and self awareness in the fact, that making a livable wage as an artist is terribly difficult. The “do it for the love” artist is often, certainly not always, but often times one that doesn’t need the income there art brings to make a living. I’m def tired of this idea that if you are catering to a market or making art for a particular audience for business decisions it is not true art.

I’m taking liberties with your statement also Brian. Certainly not saying that’s what you’re implying here, just making a general statement based on a bit of what you said. I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

 

[johng]

I don't know any artists that make art for a particular audience. They make the art that's in themselves.

you totally miss the point...its about what would engage the audience...

 

[Hartinez]

@johng goes to traditional bonsai shows, I met him at the nationals where he was thrilled to see high level bonsai. So he clearly loves bonsai generally. But like so many things in this world, there is space for both models. If we aren’t pushing the envelope, in whatever that means to people, then what’s the point and why should anyone else care?