Veebs
Mame
I can’t find any books from experts on the topic. What other resources are there, if I don’t have someone nearby that I can learn from directly.
What are the best ways to give myself a deep understanding of bonsai pots?
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Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Making pots? Or pot usage with bonsai trees?
Ah yes, the deep understanding of bonsai pots — the sacred art of staring at tiny ceramic containers until enlightenment strikes.
Here’s the foolproof method:
Here’s the foolproof method:
- Meditate at the pottery aisle of your local garden store until the clay whispers its secrets.
- Smell the drainage holes — only true masters can tell the difference between wisdom and overfiring.
- Spend your life savings on handmade Japanese pots that look exactly like the cheap ones, but “feel” more spiritual.
- Debate online for 6 hours whether unglazed pots are “purer” while your bonsai quietly dies of neglect.
- Finally, bury yourself in pumice and akadama, for only through rebirth as clay can one truly understand clay.
Great question.
I asked the question about what makes a great pot
I have been looking at pots just as much as the plants and I have tried to determine what makes pots exceptional compared to okay.
I don't mean how it complements a plant, just how the pot looks. I also realize that an exceptional pot does not make an okay tree look better and will pull your eye to the pot and not the tree.
I guess it's because I see so many posts listing the maker ... "x plant in a so and so pot."
(I have been looking at trees for over 40 years, but I just started my first ceramics class
.)
I have watched too many youtube videos on making pots to see what I like...
I don't mean how it complements a plant, just how the pot looks. I also realize that an exceptional pot does not make an okay tree look better and will pull your eye to the pot and not the tree.
I guess it's because I see so many posts listing the maker ... "x plant in a so and so pot."
(I have been looking at trees for over 40 years, but I just started my first ceramics class
.)I have watched too many youtube videos on making pots to see what I like...
I made some pots that are pretty decent. They can't compete with handmade Japanese pots but they were cheap but mine.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I beg to differ, because I like cheap and functional. To me, that's direct competition.
I suck at judging pottery, so anything that isn't ugly and is functional and frost proof, is a good pot to me. That means that the dollar store two blocks away is competing with my pottery supplier in Germany, and the pottery club my friend goes to is getting more money from me than any Japanese potter ever will. Don't underestimate yourself, that's what I'm saying.
We have this saying "Something is worth as much as a fool is willing to pay for it". I'm a fool, no question about that, but I'm not paying more than 50 dollars for a pot.
Burl
Sapling
Since you did not specify: This gem of a thread. In short how water and air relate to pot dimensions and particle size. relate https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/
Ininaatigoons
Chumono
Most books on bonsai have a short section discussing pots, but I get it. There should be a book on it. A tree is not a bonsai until it's in a pot and it has to suit the tree. General rules only get us so far.
BirdsBBQBonsai
Seed
I like Jonas Dupuich presentation on pot selection here
ShimpakuBonsai
Chumono
The last few years I have started to collect books about bonsai pots and the websites mentioned below helped me a lot to find the books.
Some of the books are very hard to find (in Europe and/or the US) and most of the books I bought trought webshops in Japan.
Quote from the website "The world of the pots":
This website shows 7 books about bonsai pots:
- https://www.the-world-of-the-pots.com/14-schalenbücher-pot-books/
Quote from the website "Sam & KJ's Suiseki blog":
This website shows 8 books about bonsai pots:
- https://samedge.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/bonsai-pot-books-to-own/
Some of the books are very hard to find (in Europe and/or the US) and most of the books I bought trought webshops in Japan.
Quote from the website "The world of the pots":
This website shows 7 books about bonsai pots:
- https://www.the-world-of-the-pots.com/14-schalenbücher-pot-books/
Quote from the website "Sam & KJ's Suiseki blog":
This website shows 8 books about bonsai pots:
- https://samedge.wordpress.com/2009/09/07/bonsai-pot-books-to-own/
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Best way to inform yourself is to get out and look at good and great bonsai pots. Bonsai Shows museums etc. also a trip to an Asian art museum can help if that museum has displays of ceramics. Good and great bonsai potters use ancient pottery for examples of glazes and shapes.
If you have a bonsai club near you ask members if you can look at their pots. Most will be excited to show off
Along with this INVEST in some actual good bonsai pots buy one or two really good ones (Matt Ouwinga at kaede en on eBay has excellent pots for extremely reasonable prices and a good place to start) Look at “name” western potters wares as well-Tokutake, Rayner, Gould, Lang, Lenz etc Sound expensive? and it can be (although whatever you buy will outlive ve most of your trees and possible you so it’s money well spent) HOWEVER the pot will be exhibit one in understanding good bonsai pots. It will also appreciate in value if you chose well.
If you have a bonsai club near you ask members if you can look at their pots. Most will be excited to show off
Along with this INVEST in some actual good bonsai pots buy one or two really good ones (Matt Ouwinga at kaede en on eBay has excellent pots for extremely reasonable prices and a good place to start) Look at “name” western potters wares as well-Tokutake, Rayner, Gould, Lang, Lenz etc Sound expensive? and it can be (although whatever you buy will outlive ve most of your trees and possible you so it’s money well spent) HOWEVER the pot will be exhibit one in understanding good bonsai pots. It will also appreciate in value if you chose well.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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My education into pots started many years ago when I lived near and frequently visited New England Bonsai Gardens. Along with the multiple greenhouses of specimen trees and pre-bonsai, they had a section of pots for sale in the main greenhouse near the register. There were several very high end Japanese pots on the shelves, including some amazing pots by Bigei, who eventually became one of my favorite potters. Holding those pots up close, feeling their weight, and seeing the details built into the etchings, rim, or the feet... things started to click as I had only sourced a few very cheap Chinese pots up until then. Eventually, the owners let me hang out in the three car garage off of their house on the NEBG grounds, and that's where they kept the GOOD STUFF! Shelf upon shelf, row after row of good to high end imported pots from Japan, China, Europe, and several U.S. artists including Lenz, Rayner, etc. I literally spent days in there over the next few years, and came home with more than a few when I could afford them. You can see some of those pots in this thread I started a long time ago https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/one-of-my-favorite-pots.9674/. Now, you can go on line to read and study. Matt Ouwinga's Ebay store is a great source of info as well as pots for sale https://www.ebay.com/str/kaedebonsaien. Also Michael Ryan Bell's website, Japanese Bonsai Pots Blog Just another WordPress.com site, is a great source of info. Enjoy the addiction!!
Veebs
Mame
I want to educate myself more to become a retailer of American and Japanese handmade pots.
Veebs
Mame
Such great responses, and I’m regretful that I don’t get push notifications like an app!
I need to do a lot better job of explaining what I’m looking to learn.
I’m interested in learning about pots as a retailer, as I have an opportunity to buy a high end collection at a fair price, a price where I can make money adding this to my fledgling bonsai business.
I’m not asking for advice on whether I should acquire the collection. I have my own level of risk tolerance, and I’m comfortable that I understand the risk I’d be taking. Just to head that direction of the conversation off.
Back to the learning: Some of the pots will be easy sells, Rayner, Hagedorn, etc. but a little over half of them are Japanese. I don’t know how to tell an $1800 12” round Japanese pot from a $180 12” round Japanese pot. I don’t know the chops of the various makers. I don’t know how to tell a 300-year old pot from a 3-year old pot.
If someone offers me a certain price on any of the pots, I don’t currently know when I’m leaving money on the table or asking an inappropriate amount.
If we ignore the maker of a pot, I don’t know how to critically judge one versus another other than by my personal aesthetic sense.
I don’t know what techniques are incredibly hard to achieve, and which are kistchy. What’s the difference between expertly executed crackling glaze and someone just trying out the technique?
If I have a Hagedorn pot that would otherwise sell for $1500, I don’t know how to adjust my value expectations when I find a small chip in the glaze.
Right now, I’m only planning to buy the one collection, but hypothetically in the future people may come to me to sell their pots to me. I need to be able to offer them a price that I can be confident still leaves me room to make money in the future.
These are the things I seek to learn, things that guys like Ken Hallat in NC have experience with for many years, things I could probably pick up in a reasonable amount of time if I was constantly around such a person. But I need to find ways to learn as much as I can remotely, as I don’t have ready access to the people with experience.
Thanks again for all the replies so far.
I need to do a lot better job of explaining what I’m looking to learn.
I’m interested in learning about pots as a retailer, as I have an opportunity to buy a high end collection at a fair price, a price where I can make money adding this to my fledgling bonsai business.
I’m not asking for advice on whether I should acquire the collection. I have my own level of risk tolerance, and I’m comfortable that I understand the risk I’d be taking. Just to head that direction of the conversation off.
Back to the learning: Some of the pots will be easy sells, Rayner, Hagedorn, etc. but a little over half of them are Japanese. I don’t know how to tell an $1800 12” round Japanese pot from a $180 12” round Japanese pot. I don’t know the chops of the various makers. I don’t know how to tell a 300-year old pot from a 3-year old pot.
If someone offers me a certain price on any of the pots, I don’t currently know when I’m leaving money on the table or asking an inappropriate amount.
If we ignore the maker of a pot, I don’t know how to critically judge one versus another other than by my personal aesthetic sense.
I don’t know what techniques are incredibly hard to achieve, and which are kistchy. What’s the difference between expertly executed crackling glaze and someone just trying out the technique?
If I have a Hagedorn pot that would otherwise sell for $1500, I don’t know how to adjust my value expectations when I find a small chip in the glaze.
Right now, I’m only planning to buy the one collection, but hypothetically in the future people may come to me to sell their pots to me. I need to be able to offer them a price that I can be confident still leaves me room to make money in the future.
These are the things I seek to learn, things that guys like Ken Hallat in NC have experience with for many years, things I could probably pick up in a reasonable amount of time if I was constantly around such a person. But I need to find ways to learn as much as I can remotely, as I don’t have ready access to the people with experience.
Thanks again for all the replies so far.
pandacular
Masterpiece
Some useful databases.
For American potters:
For Japanese and Chinese pots:
japanesebonsaipots.net
As for determining the market, that’s substantially harder, and will come after identifying the makers, and likely some failure. Good luck, you’ve certainly got some studying ahead.
For American potters:
Discover Potters
Bringing the bonsai ceramics community together and making bonsai pottery easily accessible. Discover bonsai potters of all skill levels, from amateur to professional, in all populated regions. You...
www.arbonsaiart.com
For Japanese and Chinese pots:
Artist Marks and Hanko-Tokoname
These 3 galleries of Japanese, Chinese, and Tokoname Marks represent the sum total of my signature and chop database. There are over 1000 artist marks here, including the lions share of Antique Chi…
japanesebonsaipots.net
As for determining the market, that’s substantially harder, and will come after identifying the makers, and likely some failure. Good luck, you’ve certainly got some studying ahead.
This interview with NaoTokutake, a famous bonsai potter in Oregon USA, gave me the best insights in the art of making and baking bonsai pots. Higly recommended:
This will certainly give you insights in how to distinguish high quality pots from serial produced ones and the materials used for both.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Fwiw. You can watch videos and read books. That great however I can’t stress enough that actually seeing and handling bonsai pots is the way to learn the most on your own. For instance You can definitely tell a 200 year old pot from a mass produced one simply by picking each up. You can generally tell a Chinese pot from a Japanese pot by the feel and color of the clay used and sometimes by the glazes.
You can generally tell good western potters by their sense of proportion and how their pots are constructed. In person those details are pretty apparent much more so than in a photo or video
Visit great bonsai collections. (National museum. Kennett collection Longwood Gardens are near you). Look at the pots not the trees. Some exhibits name the maker and age of the pot.
You can generally tell good western potters by their sense of proportion and how their pots are constructed. In person those details are pretty apparent much more so than in a photo or video
Visit great bonsai collections. (National museum. Kennett collection Longwood Gardens are near you). Look at the pots not the trees. Some exhibits name the maker and age of the pot.
I am a DIY guy, with pots, plants, and a life of 70 years of experience. I don't need someone else's stuff to make me happy. I would also say that all my plants are mine but, a 93 yr old friend recently gifted me a dozen or so trees just before he passed. I will never claim them as mine. (Even my wife calls them Barrie's trees.)
This does not keep me from loving other peoples work. I loved my time spent at the recent PBE and will be going to the upcoming Bonsai Rendezvous to appreciate beautiful trees and pots.
My recent pottery addiction is a dream, after being entrenched in a black hole to complete my doctorate followed by 35 years of teaching plant science and soil science. It's so free of hard facts, and lets my mind drift away for hours at a time.
Interesting reads. I, for one, happen to have fallen very much in love with the art of this wonderful craft of pot baking. I'm pretty much in awe when I can see & touch a well created one.
Like everything bonsai, beautifully crafted pots come at a price and prices tend to be exagerated very eagerly. So there is the challenge: to find well crafted beautiful pots without breaking the bank.
This is a bonsai pot 28x25 cm (11 x 9.8 inch) that I hunted for. As a newbie, my flame and eagerness to single out good quality at a great price is pretty high pitched. I aquired this one for under 50 EUR, which I think is a good score.
Like everything bonsai, beautifully crafted pots come at a price and prices tend to be exagerated very eagerly. So there is the challenge: to find well crafted beautiful pots without breaking the bank.
This is a bonsai pot 28x25 cm (11 x 9.8 inch) that I hunted for. As a newbie, my flame and eagerness to single out good quality at a great price is pretty high pitched. I aquired this one for under 50 EUR, which I think is a good score.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Important to realize: The price you can get as an online trader also depends on who is selling. Reliability (Is the pot indeed what people claim; do they know how to ship, being sure there is not giong to be any surprises when the pot arrievs) affect the price people are willing to pay for higher end pots. So certainly as a starting up business make sure you know whether you have the clients that are able and willing to buy such pots. Of course, a fysical shop also requires the right people to visit your store. If I spend 500+ on a pot I want to know the seller.
MOST people buy cheap fit-for-purpose -affordable- pots.
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