What are some organic soil substrates used for Bonsai?

[Tntthunder]

I was trying to look for some organic soils I can use because I don't want to buy Akadama as it is too expensive in my area and it apparently doesn't last long especially with my local climate. I would also like to use the same organic soils for both my trees and other plants I am propagating. Plus organic material seems to be much cheaper.

I would be mixing it with things such as Lava, pumice and perlite etc so it has good enough drainage and aeration.

Here are some things I am looking into/considering.

Peat moss - I have read some people in Bonsai use it in their mix, but I have also read it takes thousands of years to decompose and is vital for certain ecosystems with humans mining it faster than it can be replaced. So I would rather avoid it if possible.

Spagnam moss - have seen people say they use it, but mainly have seen it used for air layering and Yamadori. Also saw a post on here that some bloke died from using it? So not sure about it.

Coco coir - Know some people who use it with bonsai whilst others have said never to use it. Apparently it is good for propagation though. A bit confused about this one.

Pine bark, uncomposted - have a mate who uses this and have read others say the same things that at first it takes nitrogen in the soil away from the tree but as it breaks down it is given to the tree just like composted pine bark would with the break down process being"good for the roots". Apparently they offset this by fertilising more at first.

Pine bark, composted - doesn't last as long as the uncomposted bark but you skip the first process.

Does anyone else have any other thoughts on these or other organic materials they recommend? All the back and forth and contradictory things about soil make it pretty confusing.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Seems like you have it pretty much covered.
I wouldn’t worry about death from sphagnum. Very useful in certain applications as you mentioned.
I wouldn’t use peat for much other than propagation like you also mentioned. With its fine state, it Stays to wet to long in pots and tends to collapse quickly.
Wood chips perform different based upon size and type, but in the end will decompose in a relatively short time.
Therefore best used when repotting is expected at shorter intervals-like for grow out situations.

Best to just see what works for you, as everyone has a slightly different goals / experience.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Sphagnum and peat moss can be the same stuff. But it's quite expensive over here. People die from inhaling the dust, that's full of bacteria and fungi. Same can happen with compost. When I use sphagnum in a dried form, I soak it for a couple hours before using it.
I use coco coir every now and then and mixed with perlite it makes a good "empty" soil - meaning it has very little nutrients. Coco coir is cheap and a single brick can fill two or three pots. Can hold water for a long time, but it also can dry out fast. It requires some watering skills.

If you have pumice and lava, mix it with pine bark and you'll have an OK soil. Add some perlite and you're good.

 

[penumbra]

Any of your chosen except peat moss, which is almost always milled very fine. I use quite a bit of pine bark. I use fir bark occasionally. I am using coco coir more and more, source and grade are important. Most of what is on the market is too finely milled but what I use is chopped. And sometimes I use chopped sphagnum.

 

[Lorax7]

I was trying to look for some organic soils I can use because I don't want to buy Akadama as it is too expensive in my area and it apparently doesn't last long especially with my local climate.

You mentioned akadama breaking down quickly in your climate and then proceeded to talking about various organic alternatives. However quickly akadama breaks down in your
climate, you can be certain that organics will break down faster. That is part of why many folks don’t use organics at all in their substrate. If you’re growing species that need to be repotted frequently anyway, it may not matter so much. For conifers, though, it is definitely going to have an impact on how often you have to repot. A tree that would ordinarily go for 5 years before needing a repot when planted in akadama, pumice, and lava will definitely not be able to go that long in a mix with organics as a principal component.

 

[penumbra]

You mentioned akadama breaking down quickly in your climate and then proceeded to talking about various organic alternatives. However quickly akadama breaks down in your
climate, you can be certain that organics will break down faster. That is part of why many folks don’t use organics at all in their substrate. If you’re growing species that need to be repotted frequently anyway, it may not matter so much. For conifers, though, it is definitely going to have an impact on how often you have to repot. A tree that would ordinarily go for 5 years before needing a repot when planted in akadama, pumice, and lava will definitely not be able to go that long in a mix with organics as a principal component.

Composted bark breaks down fast. Pine bark lasts a few years and fir bark much longer. Coco coir if milled seems to last a lot longer than any other organic I have used.

 

[Tntthunder]

Any of your chosen except peat moss, which is almost always milled very fine. I use quite a bit of pine bark. I use fir bark occasionally. I am using coco coir more and more, source and grade are important. Most of what is on the market is too finely milled but what I use is chopped. And sometimes I use chopped sphagnum.

Where do you happen to get it chopped? Just buy brick and chop yourself or another method?

 

[Lorax7]

Where do you happen to get it chopped? Just buy brick and chop yourself or another method?

I’ve never seen a brick of coco coir for sale. The already chopped kind is the more prevalent form, readily available from the garden center at just about any big box store you go to.

 

[ShadyStump]

I’ve never seen a brick of coco coir for sale. The already chopped kind is the more prevalent form, readily available from the garden center at just about any big box store you go to.

Coco coir is often compressed into tight bricks for packaging after it's processed. They're easier and cheaper to ship that way. You break of chucks of 5he brick, crumble it up and mix it in with your soil/substrate.
Something to consider is that coco coir will expand as it wets, and shrink as it dries. I'm of the thought that this will help prevent small particle substrate from settling and compressing, but others may have more experience than me.
I've not found the coarser chopped stuff, so not sure about that.

Peat moss is decomposed sphagnum moss. It can make a rather acidic soil component, and can hold ALLOT of moisture. The only real problems I've had with root rot have been with peat as major component during winter. It didn't dry out at all despite draining well, and my tree's roots completely disintegrated while in winter storage.

If you're looking for something cheap for acid loving plants, used coffee grounds will hold some moisture, add acidity, and as it breaks down help fertilize.

I use a bit of all three of these in a mostly inorganic mix for some of my tropicals, and it's done well so far.

 

[cmeg1]

I definitely would stay away from fine soil especially commercial grade potting soil‘s the Peat will turn extremely acidic and since it is organic it actually buffers its own pH so is very hard to change so when the ph gets off after the lime wears away it is extremely hard to fix or impossible to fix the pH and your plants will suffer at the end of the season usually with trees.

And also anaerobic conditions will develop quicker in a pot in soil because they are enclosed pots…… now if it’s something like stonewool like I use a lot which airprunes is not a much of a deal, but all root fungi which are already present in the soil, root rot fungi‘s and spores propagate when in warm and moist and low oxygen environments a.k.a. anaerobic.

It attacks the roots and instantly offs pH at the roots.
I see that once in a while in my tents if I leave pots or cubes sit water which I never do now ,so I know it’s either a fungi or a nutrient deficiency.

 

[penumbra]

Something to consider is that coco coir will expand as it wets, and shrink as it dries.

It expands when you wet it because it is in compressed bricks. I have not found that it shrinks at all when it dries because you don't re-compress it. I have it 100% in two terrariums and in trays I set pots on. It absolutely does not shrink.

 

[penumbra]

Where do you happen to get it chopped? Just buy brick and chop yourself or another method?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097YPK8H1?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

[Tntthunder]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097YPK8H1?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Thanks for all the info! I recently watched a YouTube video of a test where it shows it does well in freezing temperatures also which is good for me. Might as well give it a go, see what happens.

A couple of questions though, as an organic I am gonna assume it holds nutrients well?

Because it expands does that mean I should wet it before potting it?

What would you say on a pine bark, Coco coir, pumice and lava rock mix adjusting it based on particular trees? Maybe even using Perlite in bigger pots when needed.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

What would you say on a pine bark, Coco coir, pumice and lava rock mix adjusting it based on particular trees? Maybe even using Perlite in bigger pots when needed.

I was quite successful with pumice and pine bark in SoCal. You want the pine bark to be the proper piece size, and screened to get rid of fines. Approx 80% pumice 20% pine bark.

One thing to consider - pine bark is a soil acidifier. It was great for me in SoCal where I had alkaline water.

 

[penumbra]

A couple of questions though, as an organic I am gonna assume it holds nutrients well?

I don't know why it wouldn't, but I don't really rely on the media but only on the fertilizer added or used.

Because it expands does that mean I should wet it before potting it?

The coco coir blocks expand a lot as they are dry compressed. You have to wet these in order to use them. The chunks that are in a bag loose, like the link I sent, do not expand noticeably. This loose mix I generally add a little water to to kept any dust down. I do this with most ingredients in a bonsai mix. No wet, just damp.

What would you say on a pine bark, Coco coir, pumice and lava rock mix adjusting it based on particular trees? Maybe even using Perlite in bigger pots when needed.

Sure that will work. I have almost stopped using perlite altogether.

 

[Tntthunder]

I don't know why it wouldn't, but I don't really rely on the media but only on the fertilizer added or used.

The coco coir blocks expand a lot as they are dry compressed. You have to wet these in order to use them. The chunks that are in a bag loose, like the link I sent, do not expand noticeably. This loose mix I generally add a little water to to kept any dust down. I do this with most ingredients in a bonsai mix. No wet, just damp.

Sure that will work. I have almost stopped using perlite altogether.

Awesome, Appreciate the help mate!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I see that once in a while in my tents if I leave pots or cubes sit water which I never do now ,so I know it’s either a fungi or a nutrient deficiency.

I think it's bacteria or maybe even wildtype yeast.
I've grown a fair share of bacteria, like actual multiple metric tonnes of them.. And they can up or down the pH a lot once they get growing in the right salt concentration. They will also take up those salts and lock that inside their bodies to use for multiplication.
The strains I've grown ate acetic acid and sodium hydroxide (both 0.5 moles/L) by the gallon per hour. They also devoured roughly 75kg of protein and fats (in a 400L tank) in about 48 hours.

Fungi are way slower and usually require more complex carbon sources but they have difficulty with animal waste products. Yeasts don't like high salt conditions and feed mostly on sugars. If you're feeding a lot of kelp product, the iodine should kill off most yeasts.

 

[cmeg1]

I think it's bacteria or maybe even wildtype yeast.
I've grown a fair share of bacteria, like actual multiple metric tonnes of them.. And they can up or down the pH a lot once they get growing in the right salt concentration. They will also take up those salts and lock that inside their bodies to use for multiplication.
The strains I've grown ate acetic acid and sodium hydroxide (both 0.5 moles/L) by the gallon per hour. They also devoured roughly 75kg of protein and fats (in a 400L tank) in about 48 hours.

Fungi are way slower and usually require more complex carbon sources but they have difficulty with animal waste products. Yeasts don't like high salt conditions and feed mostly on sugars. If you're feeding a lot of kelp product, the iodine should kill off most yeasts.

Thanks for the discussion.
If it affects one of my plants it is something like that……if its affecting alot of my plants its a nutrient defficiency or toxicity for fault of my own with the nutrient solution.