Wanted to trade: Two nice little Maples............

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Please excuse my ignorance but what is an RO system? :)

so yea its a water filting system of sorts that are expensive, but really great, are you watering with tap water? tap water is generally not good for plants, and it causes ph and mineral issues that cause the leaves to be deformed, if you had an RO system, then it probably is fungus, but if you are watering wit tap water then its probably just a ph issue.
 
I am by no means an expert when it comes to Maples. I would be the first to admit.

I usually do not grow them because they are not worth the hassle seeing they get for the most part scorched in my sun... and I would have to provide shade just for them and it is not worth the hassle.

Having said this...
I do have some experience with them and do have one that I am working for the most part, because I got it free... it is large... and hopefully at some point in time I will find a good home for it, that is not mine! My house is already an orphanage of various plants and animals.

So, I would have to ask a couple of questions first... and it might very well be as Smoke has said it is... that being a fungus. But, before I came to the other end of this equation... and resorted to chemicals... I would seek to try other roads first to eliminate them, before reaching this point. Perhaps because I do not have the experience?

The first being... that obviously there is some wilt going on. Is this a result of heat, lack of water... fungus? So, trying some shade and increasing water would be my first step... and see if this resolves the issue.

Second... I would ask, seeing I am on my phone and it does not show location... where you lived, and if you live in a very warm climate, did the tree defoliate this year? Are we looking at last year's growth as well as this years? I ask this... seeing that obviously, if we are looking at last year's as well... then one should not be that surprised to see some ratty leaves that just haven't fallen off or been replaced yet. Some of the leaves to me... look like this might be the case. And some of the brown areas might be a result of burn as well... even on new growth if it got scorched.

Lastly, you also have what appears to be some oddly mis-shappened leaves that I see lower down... are these due to a fungus, or are they the result of perhaps the tree lacking something in its diet?

With this said... you from what I have read, already sprayed it... and plan on not having it. So, hopefully the next owner has no issues.

I keep a stick in the pot to know when it needs water. It's in a shady area on the north side now that allows 4-5 hours of early morning sun and then dappled sun and shade the rest of the day. I'm in Albuquerque NM, very hot and dry but never goes above 86f on the north side of my house which is where the tree is now. The tree was completely defoliated last fall so all of the the growth you see right now is from this year. This tree has never had fungus and none of my other tree's are showing symptoms of fungus currently either. As stated earlier though, it spent all of Feb. and half of March out in the sun and temps in my back yard were 88-92F. We've also been having 40-50mph winds the last couple of weeks too but the trees have been fairly protected....
 
you should get a rain barrel. thats your problem right there. you can collect good water from various place. take a minute and read this article. thank me later

Could It Be Your Water?

by Jack Wikle


There is no need to read farther --- unless you are curious --- if you are one of those people whose bonsai consistently look healthy and grow well. On the other hand, reading more could be helpful if your trees fail to thrive in spite of your conscious effort to follow some old but good advice: water thoroughly and leach frequently to keep unwanted salts from accumulating in your bonsai soil. This is especially true if you keep seeing the common symptoms of what horticultural scientists know as low quality water: persistently weak green or yellow-green leaves with darker green veins often accompanied by scorched-looking leaf tips and burned leaf margins (most prominent toward the leaf’s tip).


By definition, “pure water” is nothing but water. But, being the “universal solvent,” water available to us from lakes, waterways, wells, the local Water Department or even a rain barrel is never pure. Actually, the “load” of dissolved minerals and other substances found in water – even water acceptable for use in human consumption and plant irrigation -- is highly variable.


People dealing regularly with water quality commonly make a distinction between “surface water” and “ground water.” Surface water is the runoff of rain into ponds, lakes and rivers. Ground water,” is water which typically has seeped deep into the ground through many tons of soil and rock before emerging as spring water or before being pumped back to the earth’s surface from a well. The reason for this classification is that surface water is relatively “soft,” that is, low in dissolved mineral content. Ground water, on the other hand, having accumulated lots of dissolved minerals as it settled deep into the earth is “hard,” i.e., high in mineral content. Where available, surface water is almost always superior to ground water for plant irrigation purposes.


However, we need to be aware that knowing your city’s water source is a river or reservoir does not necessarily mean it will be as low in pH and mineral content as one might expect. We are told it is not uncommon for municipalities to add chemicals, typically calcium hydroxide, to surface water in order to raise its pH (make it less acid) as a way of minimizing corrosion of public and private plumbing. These additives make water less satisfactory for plant use.


Technical publications directed to commercial growers of irrigated greenhouse and nursery crops make it very clear that water quality is a major factor in their success or failure. The standard recommendation is that a comprehensive horticultural water analysis should be done before settling on a growing site. Tables specifying recommended ranges for alkalinity, pH (not the same as alkalinity), soluble salts (usually measured by electrical conductivity), and six or seven specific elements can also be found in this literature. It is relatively common today for commercial growers stuck with low quality water to inject acid into it to make it better for plant use; even though this adds significantly to their production costs.


The main point is that water, even water satisfactory for kitchen use and bathing, varies greatly in pH and mineral content depending on its source. Good evidence of this is that water softeners are considered essential household equipment in some communities and not necessary in others.


Actually, I have theorized for some years that an unrecognized difference between those people whose experiments in growing bonsai are rewarding right from the beginning and those who struggle for awhile before giving up in frustration because “they don’t have the touch,” may be the quality of their water. A related observation is that, while cautions against wetting the foliage of one’s trees during the heat of midday to avoid burn are common in bonsai literature, many growers do this routinely with no damage. Again, it seems likely that this seeming contradiction is explained easily by differences in water quality.


So, what does one do if poor water quality is suspected? It would be hard to go wrong to begin by obtaining an analysis of your water. Those using water from a municipal supply will find this as easy as requesting a copy of their water analysis from the local Water Department. (The Federal Safe Drinking Water Act Amendments of 1996 require “providers” to make water analysis information available to their “customers.”) People who rely on their own wells or other private water sources, can learn where a horticultural water analysis can be obtained by contacting their local Agricultural Extension Service office. (Water Standards for Horticultural Use, offered by Dr. John C. Peterson at the American Bonsai Society’s 1990 Annual Symposium, can be found at the end of this article.)


Another way of evaluating the quality of your water for horticultural use is to obtain a package of radish seeds. Radish seedlings are known to be sensitive to high salt concentrations and other water contaminants. Plant these seeds in a relatively sterile growing medium in a number of containers. Then water some pots with your household water and others with distilled water or other mineral-free water. Noticeable differences in seed germination and seedling growth between treatments -- better germination and stronger growth in the mineral-free water – will be strong evidence that your household water is a significant problem.


Once you learn that your water is not good for growing plants, what are your options short of acid injection like the commercial growers do? Of course the amount of water needed for routine watering will be a major factor in deciding what might work for you. For a small number of plants the answer may be as simple as purchasing distilled water. If available in large enough quantity, water discharged from air conditioning equipment or water collected by a dehumidifier will also work very well.


And, even though not pure (we have all heard of acid rain), rain water will typically be far better for growing plants than mineral loaded water. With a gutter, and a downspout rigged to direct water into a container of some kind, it will be surprising how much water can be collected.


One simple water treatment remedy being used by a number of bonsai enthusiasts in parts of the country with very hard water is routinely to add white vinegar, a tablespoon or two per gallon, to the water used on their bonsai. Others have written of adding as much as a cup of vinegar per gallon of water and applying this as a monthly drench. Actually, a little experimenting with vinegar additions to your water may be all you need to do to learn more about its quality.


Another simple, though slow acting, remedy used some in commercial production is to treat plants with powdered sulfur either by scattering it over the soil surface or mixing it into the soil. One advantage in doing this is that it makes it fairly simple to treat consistently weak and off-color plants while ignoring those that seem to be fine without the extra attention. This dosage doesn’t have to be too precise, but a teaspoon of powdered sulfur per gallon of soil is a reasonable target rate for experimentation.


A more expensive but almost foolproof remedy recommended as cost effective by horticultural scientists is use of a reverse osmosis (RO) water treatment system. This equipment is now widely available. Actual costs vary depending on the volume of water required. (I know personally two very active bonsai growers who went through considerable frustration with ongoing foliage disfiguration and unexplained tree loss before they decided their problems had to be water related and had RO systems installed at their homes.)


To summarize, water varies greatly depending on its source. Unresolved problems with your bonsai may be the result of poor quality water for growing plants. Although having low quality water is unfortunate, there are remedies available. Clearly, there is little to be lost by investigating your options and the potential for improvement in your trees can be great.


Desirable Ranges for Problem Water Parameters

Distributed by Dr. John C. Peterson, June 29, 1990 at American Bonsai Society Symposium at Ohio State University:

  • pH: 5.0 to 6.5
  • Soluble Salts (Conductivity): 0 to l.5 mmhos per cm (1 mmho is equal to 1000 umhos)
  • Calcium: 0 to 120 ppm (1 ppm is equal to 1 mg per liter)
  • Magnesium: 0 to 24 ppm
  • Sodium: 0 to 50 ppm
  • Chloride: 0 to 140 ppm
  • Boron: 0 to 0.8 ppm
  • Fluoride: 0 to 1 ppm
  • Sulfate: 0 to 240 ppm
  • Alkalinity: 0 to 100 mg per liter CaCO3

February 2009 update of March 2005 AABS Newsletter column
 
you should get a rain barrel. thats your problem right there. you can collect good water from various place. take a minute and read this article. thank me later

Could It Be Your Water?

by Jack Wikle


There is no need to read farther --- unless you are curious --- if you are one of those people whose bonsai consistently look healthy and grow well. On the other hand, reading more could be helpful if your trees fail to thrive in spite of your conscious effort to follow some old but good advice: water thoroughly and leach frequently to keep unwanted salts from accumulating in your bonsai soil. This is especially true if you keep seeing the common symptoms of what horticultural scientists know as low quality water: persistently weak green or yellow-green leaves with darker green veins often accompanied by scorched-looking leaf tips and burned leaf margins (most prominent toward the leaf’s tip).


By definition, “pure water” is nothing but water. But, being the “universal solvent,” water available to us from lakes, waterways, wells, the local Water Department or even a rain barrel is never pure. Actually, the “load” of dissolved minerals and other substances found in water – even water acceptable for use in human consumption and plant irrigation -- is highly variable.


People dealing regularly with water quality commonly make a distinction between “surface water” and “ground water.” Surface water is the runoff of rain into ponds, lakes and rivers. Ground water,” is water which typically has seeped deep into the ground through many tons of soil and rock before emerging as spring water or before being pumped back to the earth’s surface from a well. The reason for this classification is that surface water is relatively “soft,” that is, low in dissolved mineral content. Ground water, on the other hand, having accumulated lots of dissolved minerals as it settled deep into the earth is “hard,” i.e., high in mineral content. Where available, surface water is almost always superior to ground water for plant irrigation purposes.


However, we need to be aware that knowing your city’s water source is a river or reservoir does not necessarily mean it will be as low in pH and mineral content as one might expect. We are told it is not uncommon for municipalities to add chemicals, typically calcium hydroxide, to surface water in order to raise its pH (make it less acid) as a way of minimizing corrosion of public and private plumbing. These additives make water less satisfactory for plant use.


Technical publications directed to commercial growers of irrigated greenhouse and nursery crops make it very clear that water quality is a major factor in their success or failure. The standard recommendation is that a comprehensive horticultural water analysis should be done before settling on a growing site. Tables specifying recommended ranges for alkalinity, pH (not the same as alkalinity), soluble salts (usually measured by electrical conductivity), and six or seven specific elements can also be found in this literature. It is relatively common today for commercial growers stuck with low quality water to inject acid into it to make it better for plant use; even though this adds significantly to their production costs.


The main point is that water, even water satisfactory for kitchen use and bathing, varies greatly in pH and mineral content depending on its source. Good evidence of this is that water softeners are considered essential household equipment in some communities and not necessary in others.


Actually, I have theorized for some years that an unrecognized difference between those people whose experiments in growing bonsai are rewarding right from the beginning and those who struggle for awhile before giving up in frustration because “they don’t have the touch,” may be the quality of their water. A related observation is that, while cautions against wetting the foliage of one’s trees during the heat of midday to avoid burn are common in bonsai literature, many growers do this routinely with no damage. Again, it seems likely that this seeming contradiction is explained easily by differences in water quality.


So, what does one do if poor water quality is suspected? It would be hard to go wrong to begin by obtaining an analysis of your water. Those using water from a municipal supply will find this as easy as requesting a copy of their water analysis from the local Water Department. (The Federal Safe Drinking Water Act Amendments of 1996 require “providers” to make water analysis information available to their “customers.”) People who rely on their own wells or other private water sources, can learn where a horticultural water analysis can be obtained by contacting their local Agricultural Extension Service office. (Water Standards for Horticultural Use, offered by Dr. John C. Peterson at the American Bonsai Society’s 1990 Annual Symposium, can be found at the end of this article.)


Another way of evaluating the quality of your water for horticultural use is to obtain a package of radish seeds. Radish seedlings are known to be sensitive to high salt concentrations and other water contaminants. Plant these seeds in a relatively sterile growing medium in a number of containers. Then water some pots with your household water and others with distilled water or other mineral-free water. Noticeable differences in seed germination and seedling growth between treatments -- better germination and stronger growth in the mineral-free water – will be strong evidence that your household water is a significant problem.


Once you learn that your water is not good for growing plants, what are your options short of acid injection like the commercial growers do? Of course the amount of water needed for routine watering will be a major factor in deciding what might work for you. For a small number of plants the answer may be as simple as purchasing distilled water. If available in large enough quantity, water discharged from air conditioning equipment or water collected by a dehumidifier will also work very well.


And, even though not pure (we have all heard of acid rain), rain water will typically be far better for growing plants than mineral loaded water. With a gutter, and a downspout rigged to direct water into a container of some kind, it will be surprising how much water can be collected.


One simple water treatment remedy being used by a number of bonsai enthusiasts in parts of the country with very hard water is routinely to add white vinegar, a tablespoon or two per gallon, to the water used on their bonsai. Others have written of adding as much as a cup of vinegar per gallon of water and applying this as a monthly drench. Actually, a little experimenting with vinegar additions to your water may be all you need to do to learn more about its quality.


Another simple, though slow acting, remedy used some in commercial production is to treat plants with powdered sulfur either by scattering it over the soil surface or mixing it into the soil. One advantage in doing this is that it makes it fairly simple to treat consistently weak and off-color plants while ignoring those that seem to be fine without the extra attention. This dosage doesn’t have to be too precise, but a teaspoon of powdered sulfur per gallon of soil is a reasonable target rate for experimentation.


A more expensive but almost foolproof remedy recommended as cost effective by horticultural scientists is use of a reverse osmosis (RO) water treatment system. This equipment is now widely available. Actual costs vary depending on the volume of water required. (I know personally two very active bonsai growers who went through considerable frustration with ongoing foliage disfiguration and unexplained tree loss before they decided their problems had to be water related and had RO systems installed at their homes.)


To summarize, water varies greatly depending on its source. Unresolved problems with your bonsai may be the result of poor quality water for growing plants. Although having low quality water is unfortunate, there are remedies available. Clearly, there is little to be lost by investigating your options and the potential for improvement in your trees can be great.


Desirable Ranges for Problem Water Parameters

Distributed by Dr. John C. Peterson, June 29, 1990 at American Bonsai Society Symposium at Ohio State University:

  • pH: 5.0 to 6.5
  • Soluble Salts (Conductivity): 0 to l.5 mmhos per cm (1 mmho is equal to 1000 umhos)
  • Calcium: 0 to 120 ppm (1 ppm is equal to 1 mg per liter)
  • Magnesium: 0 to 24 ppm
  • Sodium: 0 to 50 ppm
  • Chloride: 0 to 140 ppm
  • Boron: 0 to 0.8 ppm
  • Fluoride: 0 to 1 ppm
  • Sulfate: 0 to 240 ppm
  • Alkalinity: 0 to 100 mg per liter CaCO3

February 2009 update of March 2005 AABS Newsletter column

This was a great read and undoubtedly valid but I've been using water out of the hose since last year with no problems. I did prune the roots on this tree quite a bit 4-5 weeks ago though and I wonder if that has anything to do with it...
 
Been watering with tap water for 15 years - I seem to be fine

same here - no way i could get by if my water wasnt up to snuff. ive got something like 140 linear feet of benches to water.

theres also a large amount of waste in just producing the ro water.

20160329_152547.jpg
 
NICE setup WDS
thanks - its getting there always more to be done

i feel like i have to say this - i owe a lot of what i know to people like you, rockm, smoke, vance - you know all the mean people. their willingness to share helped me along the way all those many years back.
 
thanks - its getting there always more to be done

i feel like i have to say this - i owe a lot of what i know to people like you, rockm, smoke, vance - you know all the mean people. their willingness to share helped me along the way all those many years back.
Lol!
 
same here - no way i could get by if my water wasnt up to snuff. ive got something like 140 linear feet of benches to water.

theres also a large amount of waste in just producing the ro water.

View attachment 139996



Nice spot for us to pound some brews, smoke some ribs...good times! Tilt a telescope and be @watchndsky !!! I think PappyMac has a telescope, so I 'll drag everybody out into the Rockies to look towards the heavens.....while I scurry amongst the shadows...c'mon, it's Colorado!!:cool:

I like to float around the ranch, though......trust me, it's a 360 degree experience...;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D We got a ton of shitty trees.
DSC01267.JPG DSC01266.JPG DSC01265.JPG


I do dig the naturalness of your backyard....and that trees get a seat, humans must stand!!!!;):D:D:D:D:D
 
Nice spot for us to pound some brews, smoke some ribs...good times! Tilt a telescope and be @watchndsky !!! I think PappyMac has a telescope, so I 'll drag everybody out into the Rockies to look towards the heavens.....while I scurry amongst the shadows...c'mon, it's Colorado!!:cool:

I like to float around the ranch, though......trust me, it's a 360 degree experience...;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D We got a ton of shitty trees.
View attachment 140022 View attachment 140023 View attachment 140024


I do dig the naturalness of your backyard....and that trees get a seat, humans must stand!!!!;):D:D:D:D:D

ive still got my celestron c8 - but never use it anymore really. turns out i really like sleep alot more than i used to.

ribs and a pool - wont have to invite us twice.
 
Yeah, he does have the problem-- the same one you do.

Both of you tend to stick your fingers in your ears when someone dares suggest that what you're doing may not be all that intelligent or worthwhile....hmmmm....you scream at us for not appreciating your experience ALL-THE-TIME....
Sorry...
for some odd reason or another my phone must of been on the blitz...
I thought watchnthesky posted this comment that I responded too!
My Bad!
Now that I realize it is you... It is even funnier!

That you would think I actually do stuff that isn't intelligent or worthwhile!
You can try and insult me if you want... but, I actually don't think you are that dumb!
Lol!

One more thing... I would like to address the screaming at you part. You are correct! Again, this is my Bad! See folks like yourself and others have been for years bitching about how I never contribute here at this site! That I just cause trouble... which is BS seeing I have always contributed.

But, ok...

This year and last year... I started trying to turn a new leaf, seeing it's silly. So I figured I would try and contribute even more than I usually do... in the hopes that people would just get over their hang ups and let's just talk bonsai!

This thread just shows sadly how much people just seem to enjoy tearing each other down. Yes, I was upset... because I was honestly trying to make an effort. But, clearly most people here could care less and that is fine.

I do pretty well without this site... and your right! I should not have to bother you to want to discuss Bonsai.
 
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