Vance mentioned something very interesting to me....

[just.wing.it]

On the topic of trunk chopping a Bald Cypress...
He said that a late summer trunk chop may be beneficial to adding girth to the trunk.
After reading this, I scoured the internet and saw several good BC sources of information, but nothing about this, specifically.
I guess, that maybe it has something to do with the tree making more vascular growth in fall and if the trunk is smaller, then it gets thicker than it would if it was 7 feet tall???

Can anyone out there confirm or deny this?
I was going to just repotting the tree with minimal cutting back next spring and continue to let it run, to thicken up the trunk....

I'm just super curious about this now...
Thoughts?
Maybe the man himself will chime in to add some details.

 

[GGB]

I hear mumblings of similar things. Hope a guru weighs in

 

[just.wing.it]

I hear mumblings of similar things. Hope a guru weighs in

Really?

 

[Dav4]

I've never heard of using a chop to add girth...taper, yes, but not girth.

 

[Ironbeaver]

It makes some sense, sounds like science Time!

 

[Zach Smith]

If someone has done controlled studies to prove or disprove this technique, then the results would be well worth knowing. Otherwise we're left with either hearsay, educated guesses or anecdotal evidence. BC are powerfully apically dominant, so it's possible that chopping late in the season would force the last bit of growth more into the lower trunk than in rebuilding the apex. Uncertain until we get some evidence.

 

[just.wing.it]

I've never heard of using a chop to add girth...taper, yes, but not girth.

He said it was specific to the BC....but yeah me too.
Hence the thread....

 

[just.wing.it]

If someone has done controlled studies to prove or disprove this technique, then the results would be well worth knowing. Otherwise we're left with either hearsay, educated guesses or anecdotal evidence. BC are powerfully apically dominant, so it's possible that chopping late in the season would force the last bit of growth more into the lower trunk than in rebuilding the apex. Uncertain until we get some evidence.

Yes, I read about their apical dominance in my research...
And it's evident in my BC.

 

[Zach Smith]

Yes, I read about their apical dominance in my research...
And it's evident in my BC.

It's one of the real challenges when working with the species. The branches vary in strength highest to lowest from top to bottom, so getting the girth you need in the lower branches has to be balanced against building the apex for chopped specimens which need strong growth too. They never seem to get out of hand while you're watching them daily, but ignore them for a week at your peril.

 

[just.wing.it]

It's one of the real challenges when working with the species. The branches vary in strength highest to lowest from top to bottom, so getting the girth you need in the lower branches has to be balanced against building the apex for chopped specimens which need strong growth too. They never seem to get out of hand while you're watching them daily, but ignore them for a week at your peril.

I still have several useable low branches, which I intend to keep.
And my trunk already has a fully healed chop, so it's off to a good start either way.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/new-addition-to-my-tree-family-native-too.28135/page-3#post-486318

 

[GGB]

I'm doing a "controlled experiment" currently. I use quotes because I lost some amount of the control this spring. I have a spring chopped BC and a late summer chopped BC. The late summer BC has caught up to the spring one (yes they were different sizes, strike one) BUT the spring BC had a pretty huge setback when a house finch defoliated 100% of it's new growth (control strike 2) so I'd argue that it's stunted from that. But obviously year one of the experiment yields nothing worth talking about. I'd repeat again next year but the trees won't need it. Someone hit me up 2019 and remind me aboutthis thread haha.

 

[0soyoung]

Chopping is not ever going to make a trunk thicken.

End of Story.


Stems thicken because cambium cells divide. Most of the 'daughter cells' become xylem (wood) and some become phloem (inner bark). Wood, for example, is mostly cellulose. Cellulose is just a sugar polymer. The sugar, of course comes from photosynthesis in the leaves. Take away the flow of sugar to build these tissues and the auxin to stimulate it --> no growth,

Trees are indeed made from thin air (and water plus a few minerals), but I don't suggest smoking whatever it is that Vance is smoking today.

 

[Zach Smith]

There's no arguing that stems thicken because cambium cells divide. However, the rate at which they divide is of paramount importance when we're seeking thickening of either trunk or branch. I'm sure we've all experienced those delightful so-called water shoots, the ones that rocket skyward while their brethren just plod along accordingly to the original plan. And of course we see some branches on our trees that grow much more vigorously than others, and we have to "cool" them off to maintain balance. If a chop can stimulate more-rapid growth, then it's certainly possible to get faster thickening. Sometimes chopping or pruning stunts growth. Years ago I recall buying a Farmer's Almanac, and they had dates indicated where you were to prune your fruit trees, etc. to stimulate growth, and others to restrain growth. I have seen the phenomenon in casual observation, but have no idea if it's real of what's behind it.

For what it's worth.

 

[BillsBayou]

Here are the first freeze tables for Maryland: https://extension.umd.edu/growit/beyond-basics/fall-frostfreeze-dates-maryland

DISCLAIMER: ALL THAT I SAY IS FOR THE NEW ORLEANS AREA. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.
I would only trunk chop a BC in late summer if I collected it in late summer. Then I would cross my fingers. I'd use nitrogen-rich fertilizers until mid-October to get the tree green, and then nitrogen-poor fertilizers after that to harden off the growth. Our first freeze typically comes in early December, but we may not see a freeze until mid-January. I want the tree green to pump food into the roots so the buds would pop out in February.

But none of this would be to fatten up the base of the trunk.

If you want to fatten the trunk, flood the tree from March-October; every year. Completely submerge the roots. Lenticels in the roots convert from gas exchange to gas transport. This is why the tree can be flooded without starving the roots for oxygen. As these cells change their function, they fatten the roots, and by extension, the base of the tree.

If you want knees: Get 10 trees with 1"-2" bases; flood from March-October for 8-10 years; NEVER cut anything on the tree; don't repot; and you might get one or a few of the trees to sprout knees. All of them will have bases of 4"-8" at the soil/water line. Donate the knee-less trees to your local bonsai club's fund raiser.

 

[GGB]

@BillsBayou i'll take that advice to the bank. thanks man

 

[Joe Dupre']

Let me throw an isolated observation into the mix on the subject of keeping bald cypress in water. When I moved to my current location 25 years ago, there were 12 cypress trees on the property........two were 5 feet above and 40 feet away from the bayou that runs along the rear of the property. The other ten were basically sitting in water anywhere from 6" to a foot above their soil levels. The two on land have grown from 12" to almost 35" in diameter at the base. The ones in the water have hardley grown at all.

I asked a wildlife biologist cousin about this phenomenon. He said cypress trees can "tolerate" a certain amount of flooding, but continued submersion starts a steady decline in health. Think back to all those lovely pictures someone on this forum took in that cypress lined lake. The trees in the water were pretty much all dying, with rotting trunks and bases.
Apparently keeping a cypress bonsai in water for a few months is OK, but I think the best course is to take it out of the water for a few months out of the year and water it normally.

 

[just.wing.it]

Let me throw an isolated observation into the mix on the subject of keeping bald cypress in water. When I moved to my current location 25 years ago, there were 12 cypress trees on the property........two were 5 feet above and 40 feet away from the bayou that runs along the rear of the property. The other ten were basically sitting in water anywhere from 6" to a foot above their soil levels. The two on land have grown from 12" to almost 35" in diameter at the base. The ones in the water have hardley grown at all.

I asked a wildlife biologist cousin about this phenomenon. He said cypress trees can "tolerate" a certain amount of flooding, but continued submersion starts a steady decline in health. Think back to all those lovely pictures someone on this forum took in that cypress lined lake. The trees in the water were pretty much all dying, with rotting trunks and bases.
Apparently keeping a cypress bonsai in water for a few months is OK, but I think the best course is to take it out of the water for a few months out of the year and water it normally.

That's extremely interesting!
And I do plan to remove mine from it's tub soon, maybe mid September.
.....
Hmm... Gears are turning....

 

[rockm]

Let me throw an isolated observation into the mix on the subject of keeping bald cypress in water. When I moved to my current location 25 years ago, there were 12 cypress trees on the property........two were 5 feet above and 40 feet away from the bayou that runs along the rear of the property. The other ten were basically sitting in water anywhere from 6" to a foot above their soil levels. The two on land have grown from 12" to almost 35" in diameter at the base. The ones in the water have hardley grown at all.

I asked a wildlife biologist cousin about this phenomenon. He said cypress trees can "tolerate" a certain amount of flooding, but continued submersion starts a steady decline in health. Think back to all those lovely pictures someone on this forum took in that cypress lined lake. The trees in the water were pretty much all dying, with rotting trunks and bases.
Apparently keeping a cypress bonsai in water for a few months is OK, but I think the best course is to take it out of the water for a few months out of the year and water it normally.

Sorry Joe, but you're beating your head against a wall with the "don't grow it in water" thing. I've been saying that over and over and over again, but...

 

[BeebsBonsai]

The water thing is always interesting to me. From my basic understanding, I would think keeping a tree's roots in water would keep the nebari small. Think of hydroponics farms. You can have a five foot tall beanstalk with almost no roots. I would think this would be the same for a tree. If the tree doesn't have to reach out for it's water and nutrition, or occupy more space within a container to utilize the space it has to uptake that nutrition, why would it continue to grow roots outwardly? I am sure I am wrong in my understanding here, so if anyone wants to let me know how and why, I would appreciate it. My common sense just tells me that, unless it needed more stability, a tree in constant water wouldn't extend it's roots much.

 

[just.wing.it]

tree in constant water wouldn't extend it's roots much.

Mine's grown very well in water this year.
When I flush the tub, I let the pot drain out an I flush it several times before it goes back in.
But, it's done well.
I am gonna take it out for fall though.