Trident maple with no internodes this year

[sorce]

Since the seedlings are growing well, anything soil or nutrient related can be scratched.

I don't know if we're sure the grafts can't send suppressing signals to the other growth.

Because these 2 foliages will never "work" together, which one will you pick?

I'd ditch the grafts and see what comes of the tightnoder.

Sorce

 

[Hack Yeah!]

@karen82 , did it by chance freeze after leafing? I have one that looks very similar and I've been told that they don't like to get close to freezing after leafing out. Mine was exposed to around 30 F within a week or so of leafing and has stalled pretty much all this season

 

[karen82]

Since the seedlings are growing well, anything soil or nutrient related can be scratched.

I don't know if we're sure the grafts can't send suppressing signals to the other growth.

Because these 2 foliages will never "work" together, which one will you pick?

I'd ditch the grafts and see what comes of the tightnoder.

Sorce

The seedlings are for root grafts so they are getting chopped off eventually. I haven't yet as I do want them to take.. this thing had pretty ugly roots. They will go soon though.

 

[karen82]

@karen82 , did it by chance freeze after leafing? I have one that looks very similar and I've been told that they don't like to get close to freezing after leafing out. Mine was exposed to around 30 F within a week or so of leafing and has stalled pretty much all this season

That's a possibility this year... there were a few nights with frost advisories though I don't think it quite froze here.
Last year I kept it in the cold greenhouse for early spring though.

 

[leatherback]

I remain with a weak tree struggling to establish itself. The dead twigs and die-back on the branches are also indicative. I think the soil is just too much to handle. Stop fertilizing. Fertilizer is contra-productive if roots are weak. (As is overwatering)

The seedlings are on their own roots. As such they do much better.

 

[karen82]

I remain with a weak tree struggling to establish itself. The dead twigs and die-back on the branches are also indicative. I think the soil is just too much to handle. Stop fertilizing. Fertilizer is contra-productive if roots are weak. (As is overwatering)

The seedlings are on their own roots. As such they do much better.

I think you might be right about it being weaker and establishing itself in the pot, however I guess I was unclear about it. The main tree is on its own roots, too. It's not a grafted tree, the seedlings were used as a mix of thread and approach grafts to try to improve the nebari. The dieback is also entirely cold damage so not necessarily a sign of poor health (I keep the trees in a sheltered spot enclosed in burlap but only about 30". Everything sticking above the burlap either died from the cold or got eaten by deer - everything under was fine.)

 

[karen82]

This is an old thread, I know, but the same tree is having the same issue, the third year in a row. I'm starting to wonder if this is somehow a permanent problem, in which case I cannot use this tree for bonsai as it's incapable of growing.
Quick summary -
2018 - Got tree bareroot in spring. It grew normally.
2019 - Grew normally
2020 - Repotted in early spring, bare-rooted and did some root grafts with seedlings. Put into a large (probably too large) grow box with well draining bonsai soil. The seedlings all grew normally, but the main tree did not. It leafed out with the normal amount of leaves but no growth. As in weird little tufts of solid leaf with no internodes whatsoever. The seedlings all grew normally.
2021 - Again, the seedlings grew strongly, but the main tree did not grow. it just put out the weird little balls of solid leaf with no internode.
2022 - In case the too-large grow box was the issue, I repotted into a smaller pot. I combed the outer roots and trimmed a bit, and removed a few seedlings where the graft had failed (I did not bareroot). I cut back most of the seedlings, in case they were somehow drawing vigor from the main tree. But upon leafing out, the tree is STILL not growing internodes.

I've tried to address all of the various potential issues that people have suggested. I don't think it can still be a result of stress from bare rooting as it hasn't been barerooted for over 2 years now. I don't think it's from overpotting, because it's in a properly sized training pot right now. Could it be the result of some disease or other condition? It's incredibly frustrating to keep waiting on this tree. hoping it will grow next year. The way it is right now, I was not exaggerating when I said it's incapable of growing - it hasn't grown at all in 3 years, Not one branch or stem. The leaves it grows look normal individually and stay green all season, it's just the way they get packed in there with no internodes between them that makes it look so odd.

 

[0soyoung]

Your summary indicates the seedlings are the issue = the tree grew normally before they were added, has been weird since.

There could be something else that changed at the same time as the were added, but you are not going to know until you get rid of those seedlings.

 

[karen82]

Your summary indicates the seedlings are the issue = the tree grew normally before they were added, has been weird since.

There could be something else that changed at the same time as the were added, but you are not going to know until you get rid of those seedlings.

Thank you.
That makes sense, but Trident maples are often grafted, and I've just never heard of this happening (the seedlings were grown specifically for bonsai use). But yes, I was worried about the seedlings being the issue which was why I cut back the stronger ones heavily. I don't think removing them completely is possible anymore, the thread grafted ones are pretty well merged. Although I can of course cut off the above ground parts of the seedlings easily anytime.

 

[0soyoung]

There's nothing to compare with strange stuff like this!!
It is so much fun to just find things out.
But it usually it is a worthless diversion from matters one is pursuing, and so, a 'waste of time'.

Walnuts are known to exude stuff from their roots that prevents other things from growing near to them. Seems pretty wild to think that one variety can have an effect like this on another of the same species. But, as soon as you put these other seedlings in the same pot, your big tree went bug-fuckey, per your account. By this point in time, the seedlings you haven't removed are evidently fused and can get or are getting what they need from your big sick tree.

IOW, removing the tops may not have an effect if this is actually happening (i.e., root exudation). Nevertheless you can REMOVE THE TOPS OF ALL THOSE SEEDLINGS NOW and observe whether your big tree starts being more normal. Then, NEXT SPRING REMOVE ALL THE ROOTS OF ALL THE SEEDLINGS and observe whether your big tree starts being more normal.

Meanwhile, lets suppose that the big tree remains bug-fuckey despite all of this. Are you certain that you haven't censored any details from the story just because you 'know' it's not relevant? Think hard about it. It is nothing personal. It is something we all unconsciously do from time to time. If not, I have no further hypotheses and no further suggestions.


Well, I'll partially retract that. It is possible that your big tree will never recover - that it will be this way forever more. I am aware that some treatments can throw a switch in the DNA that cannot be undone. This is what witches brooms are. Your big tree's ability to synthesize auxin/gibberellin may be permanently gone. But, lets see if that is indicated.

 

[faker]

To complicate things... I have a trident that has done the same thing this year and last but has no root grafts. It was in poorly draining soil the past year, so I hoped repotting into a free draining mix this year would help, but the problem has persisted.

I thought it was reflective of a fungal issue because it has been in overall poorer health, but now I'm considered this may be more permanent.

 

[0soyoung]

In reading back through this thread it seems you haven't tried @Adair M's suggestion

That is, make these

Look something like this .

Have you @faker tried this? I didn't see @karen82 saying anything about it one way or another.

It is something you both could try (even just on one branch) and now would be a good time to do it to see if normal growth subsequently happens.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

@karen82 , mine returned to better growth this season and I wish you luck with yours. I was wondering what what your night time temps are? Maybe next season you could supplement some bottom heat at the beginning of the growing season? I was also thinking maybe you could plant it out for a couple of years, provided it could survive your climate? Have you tested your water pH or supplied micronutrients?

Just options you may not have explored...

 

[karen82]

There's nothing to compare with strange stuff like this!!
It is so much fun to just find things out.
But it usually it is a worthless diversion from matters one is pursuing, and so, a 'waste of time'.

Walnuts are known to exude stuff from their roots that prevents other things from growing near to them. Seems pretty wild to think that one variety can have an effect like this on another of the same species. But, as soon as you put these other seedlings in the same pot, your big tree went bug-fuckey, per your account. By this point in time, the seedlings you haven't removed are evidently fused and can get or are getting what they need from your big sick tree.

IOW, removing the tops may not have an effect if this is actually happening (i.e., root exudation). Nevertheless you can REMOVE THE TOPS OF ALL THOSE SEEDLINGS NOW and observe whether your big tree starts being more normal. Then, NEXT SPRING REMOVE ALL THE ROOTS OF ALL THE SEEDLINGS and observe whether your big tree starts being more normal.

Meanwhile, lets suppose that the big tree remains bug-fuckey despite all of this. Are you certain that you haven't censored any details from the story just because you 'know' it's not relevant? Think hard about it. It is nothing personal. It is something we all unconsciously do from time to time. If not, I have no further hypotheses and no further suggestions.


Well, I'll partially retract that. It is possible that your big tree will never recover - that it will be this way forever more. I am aware that some treatments can throw a switch in the DNA that cannot be undone. This is what witches brooms are. Your big tree's ability to synthesize auxin/gibberellin may be permanently gone. But, lets see if that is indicated.

Besides the seedlings there are two other things I can think of that are new - first I also potted it into a slightly different, better draining soil. Secondly, I used push pins to secure many of the grafts. I never thought of it before, but I know some metals can effect plant growth - though it seems they should affect the seedlings too if this were the problem. Also, in late 2018, I moved to a new house, farther north. Same hardiness zone, but the growing season is shorter. However, it did fine the first year after the move
I'm just a bit hesitant to blame the seedlings as tridents are so commonly root grafted and the seedlings I bought were grown for this purpose - I'm fairly confident that some other people here must have used seedlings from this grower, and there would be more people with this problem if it was the seedlings.
I'm really hoping it's not some virus or mutation that's permanent. It's all over the tree, not just a single branch.

 

[karen82]

@karen82 , mine returned to better growth this season and I wish you luck with yours. I was wondering what what your night time temps are? Maybe next season you could supplement some bottom heat at the beginning of the growing season? I was also thinking maybe you could plant it out for a couple of years, provided it could survive your climate? Have you tested your water pH or supplied micronutrients?

Just options you may not have explored...

Night time temps are in the 50's here. Spring is always late here, but especially so this year. I haven't tested my water, but we have very hard water here, so I use rainwater when I can. I haven't fertilized this year yet (it's still quite early in the growing season here).

 

[karen82]

In reading back through this thread it seems you haven't tried @Adair M's suggestion

That is, make these View attachment 441914

Look something like this View attachment 441913.

Have you @faker tried this? I didn't see @karen82 saying anything about it one way or another.

It is something you both could try (even just on one branch) and now would be a good time to do it to see if normal growth subsequently happens.

No I never did that. I was going to, but other comments were that the tree was just stressed and I didn't want to stress it further by removing most of its leaves. I think the original suggestion was to remove most of the leaves on every tuft to try to force it to grow and I was afraid to be that drastic. I'll try that out on one branch though as you suggested, just to see how it responds.

 

[penumbra]

It is possible that your big tree will never recover - that it will be this way forever more. I am aware that some treatments can throw a switch in the DNA that cannot be undone. This is what witches brooms are. Your big tree's ability to synthesize auxin/gibberellin may be permanently gone.

Interesting thought popped up in my mind as well.

 

[karen82]

I pinched off all but one pair of leaves per tuft one of the upper branches to see what happens.

 

[0soyoung]

So what is happening with your tree since you pinched it, @karen82 ?

 

[karen82]

So what is happening with your tree since you pinched it, @karen82 ?

Nothing yet.