To water or not to water....?

[Ujjawal Roy]

Hi everyone on this site. Needed your help with watering my plants. My soil composition is crushed clay pots + perlite and some amount of organic additives. Watering a plants (pre bonsai) depends on numerous factors and I understand that very well but I want to know what is that one thing that can be checked, which gives consistent results and can help me to determine whether I should be watering the plant or not? Which is that one variable which gives the correct estimation of the watering needs of my plant? I don't want to water my plants once they start wilting but neither do I want to overwater them.
Any suggestions will be appreciated!
Thank you

 

[Shibui]

I am not sure whether there is any one foolproof methiod for predicting when to water. I find it is just a matter of getting to know your potting soil - how it looks and how it feels so you can recognize when the soil needs water. Some people push a wooden skewer or chopstick in the pot and leave it there. Pull out each day and check how wet the skewer is to judge how wet the soil is. Others scrape down a little into the soil to check sub surface moisture. After a while you should get the feel for how long the mix goes in different conditions and be able to water without always checking.
Wilting is another key indicator. Many people have one particular tree that always wilts before any others. It is the indicator tree that tells that watering is required for all pots. Over time you can then judge how often and how much water is correct for your trees in your conditions and water before the indicator tree wilts.
From the sound of your soil mix I don't think you will have problems from overwatering. Excess water should just run straight through. My soil mix is also quite open and my trees get watered twice a day in summer whether they need it or not and I don't seem to have problems with root rot.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Shibui beat me to it! But it's the most fool-proof system I can recommend to people as well just to use a piece of wood or bamboo that probes in the soil. If the wood is damp, don't water. If it's dry, give water.

 

[sorce]

With that soil where you are, you can probably keep watering all day and night.

Every other person I've seen in India uses almost mud. Though I can't say I know how the trees fare, it seems as if they've been doing that with relative success for a while. Which doesn't mean much except that is the extreme opposite of your situation.

If you are experiencing any problems, it is due to underwatering.

When in doubt water, always water. Always more!

With such a loose soil, root rot isn't even a worry for you. No matter how much you water, keep it flushed, the more the better.

The only other problem excess soil water presents is aesthetic, with low bark, and if you mess up the aesthetic, it can run into horticultural damage.

Water.

Sorce

 

[Colorado]

I always err on the side of overwatering. Watering a tree that is already “wet” one time is not going to hurt the tree.

Letting the tree dry out too much one time can set the tree back significantly, or worse.

That said, over time you should get a ‘feeling’ of when you need to water.

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

I am not sure whether there is any one foolproof methiod for predicting when to water. I find it is just a matter of getting to know your potting soil - how it looks and how it feels so you can recognize when the soil needs water. Some people push a wooden skewer or chopstick in the pot and leave it there. Pull out each day and check how wet the skewer is to judge how wet the soil is. Others scrape down a little into the soil to check sub surface moisture. After a while you should get the feel for how long the mix goes in different conditions and be able to water without always checking.
Wilting is another key indicator. Many people have one particular tree that always wilts before any others. It is the indicator tree that tells that watering is required for all pots. Over time you can then judge how often and how much water is correct for your trees in your conditions and water before the indicator tree wilts.
From the sound of your soil mix I don't think you will have problems from overwatering. Excess water should just run straight through. My soil mix is also quite open and my trees get watered twice a day in summer whether they need it or not and I don't seem to have problems with root rot.

Does watering twice a day seem to harm any tree that has undergone any recent severe root pruning or repotting? As far as I know, a tree with a small root mass doesn't dry out the soil and watering over and over might kill the remaining roots as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

With that soil where you are, you can probably keep watering all day and night.

Every other person I've seen in India uses almost mud. Though I can't say I know how the trees fare, it seems as if they've been doing that with relative success for a while. Which doesn't mean much except that is the extreme opposite of your situation.

If you are experiencing any problems, it is due to underwatering.

When in doubt water, always water. Always more!

With such a loose soil, root rot isn't even a worry for you. No matter how much you water, keep it flushed, the more the better.

The only other problem excess soil water presents is aesthetic, with low bark, and if you mess up the aesthetic, it can run into horticultural damage.

Water.

Sorce

Thanks @sorce I'll keep that in mind. I know people here, in India, use sandy soils like silt and river sand with organic matter added for feeding their trees and honestly i think its great for gardening purposes, but, I personally want to use a loose coarse mix as it is good for aeration, helps to develop a root mass of fine feeder roots and overtime help in thickening of the trunk base and also the trunk. Very less people dare to mess with the roots as much as i do. Here it's common to cut away 1/3 of the root ball and repot the tree in a newer pot, but I like to clean away the old soil, work on the roots and then repot into fresh soil and thus I am trying to use an unconventional (among Indian bonsai artist) substrate mix. I hope I can water when in doubt and not drown the plants. Water usually tends to run out of the holes and there's no pool in the pots and still I've read that such soil can also be detrimental for some plants and I fail to understand how can that be the case if there's no water pooling, lots of air space is left in between particles and moisture is trapped inside each particle which i think should be great for the roots...

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

I always err on the side of overwatering. Watering a tree that is already “wet” one time is not going to hurt the tree.

Letting the tree dry out too much one time can set the tree back significantly, or worse.

That said, over time you should get a ‘feeling’ of when you need to water.

I fear that I am not getting any better at it that feeling hasn't come to me yet let's hope things get better as I gain more experience

 

[Lumaca]

Out of curiosity, have you had bad experiences with overwatering? What plants are you growing?

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

Out of curiosity, have you had bad experiences with overwatering? What plants are you growing?

Yes, I've had bad experience with overwatering, I've seen shoot tips turning crisp and falling off, I've a schefflera which was recently re-potted and root pruned and it got wrinkly and then it got plump and I started watering it a bit more often and kept it in sun once it started getting new buds and now it's looking wrinkly again, I mean the branches and the stem look wrinkled up. The buds that formed haven't grown out yet. They swelled up and are just stunted now for the past one month or so.
I am growing tropical species like ficuses, citrus and a few delonix regias.

 

[Paradox]

Hi everyone on this site. Needed your help with watering my plants. My soil composition is crushed clay pots + perlite and some amount of organic additives. Watering a plants (pre bonsai) depends on numerous factors and I understand that very well but I want to know what is that one thing that can be checked, which gives consistent results and can help me to determine whether I should be watering the plant or not? Which is that one variable which gives the correct estimation of the watering needs of my plant? I don't want to water my plants once they start wilting but neither do I want to overwater them.
Any suggestions will be appreciated!
Thank you

You need to learn to water when the tree needs it. The "when" will depend on the type of soil, how long the tree has been in the pot (debris builds up over time that effects water retention), the species of tree and the season (trees need to be watered more in the hot summer than in the cooler spring, fall, winter).

Watering 2x a day, unless you're in the desert or its very hot is probably too much.

A very open, loose soil (aka pumice, lava mix) can be watered more often than a heavy soil (ie lots of loam or potting mix).
Most of us prefer an open soil because its almost impossible to overwater.

 

[_#1_]

Yes, I've had bad experience with overwatering, I've seen shoot tips turning crisp and falling off, I've a schefflera which was recently re-potted and root pruned and it got wrinkly and then it got plump and I started watering it a bit more often and kept it in sun once it started getting new buds and now it's looking wrinkly again, I mean the branches and the stem look wrinkled up. The buds that formed haven't grown out yet. They swelled up and are just stunted now for the past one month or so.
I am growing tropical species like ficuses, citrus and a few delonix regias.

Maybe you're looking in the wrong direction for answers.

I could be wrong but putting certain trees in full blazing sun after a repot might not be a good idea. Especially if the roots where compromised.

Have you tried moving it to bright indirect light? like next to a house or under a large tree? And keep it there until it is really growing again, not just leaves and stems growing plump?

Just a thought...

 

[sorce]

If the full sun is only damaging tips, I'd try watering a LOT more first. Some may do better. Only move the others.

Pics!

Soil pics, Please!

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Does watering twice a day seem to harm any tree that has undergone any recent severe root pruning or repotting? As far as I know, a tree with a small root mass doesn't dry out the soil and watering over and over might kill the remaining roots as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have not experienced problems after repotting, even after severe root reduction. You are correct that trees with fewer roots cannot take water from the soil but water is very important after root reduction because many root tips have been removed. The tree still needs water but has to get it all through a few remaining root tips until the new ones can grow which can take from 1 week to several months depending on species and time of year. A dry soil makes it difficult for the remaining roots to get enough water to keep the trees alive.
With some of our Australian native species that we root prune in spring and summer like tropicals they seem to recover better if the pot is kept in a shallow tray of water so it never dries out. After new roots are established the tray can be removed and go back to normal watering. even a few hours of dry can kill a tree with compromised roots.
I always water well after any repotting and have not seen issues as a result. Far more trees die from lack of water than from a little extra. Deciduous trees that are root pruned while dormant in winter is a completely different thing. Those trees are not using much water and the dormant roots cannot heal the cuts straight away. Just damp is better after repotting deciduous species in the dormant season

There are several related issues here.
Small trees with few roots in large pots are at risk. Soil with no roots can go toxic so the pot should be large enough for the tree to grow properly but not so big it cannot fill the space with roots. Your larger particle soil with mostly inorganic should not cause problems as much as a finer soil with lots of organics.
I know that ficus and citrus respond far better when root pruned in warmer weather so they recover fast. When repotted in the dormant season they do not recover well and problems start.

 

[Lumaca]

Yes, I've had bad experience with overwatering, I've seen shoot tips turning crisp and falling off, I've a schefflera which was recently re-potted and root pruned and it got wrinkly and then it got plump and I started watering it a bit more often and kept it in sun once it started getting new buds and now it's looking wrinkly again, I mean the branches and the stem look wrinkled up. The buds that formed haven't grown out yet. They swelled up and are just stunted now for the past one month or so.
I am growing tropical species like ficuses, citrus and a few delonix regias.

Well, I am not as experienced as some of the members here, but if I used your substrate in my climate, I'll probably have to water every 3-4 hours!

It seems that you are applying knowledge/techniques written for vastly different climate than yours (which I've been guilty of in the past).

Your soil is drier than what I use for p. afra which is a succulent btw.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Missing ingredient is instinct. Most worthwhile and gained largely by experience.

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

Maybe you're looking in the wrong direction for answers.

I could be wrong but putting certain trees in full blazing sun after a repot might not be a good idea. Especially if the roots where compromised.

Have you tried moving it to bright indirect light? like next to a house or under a large tree? And keep it there until it is really growing again, not just leaves and stems growing plump?

Just a thought...

The repot was back in October and then I let the tree grow new buds before putting it in sun. The duration is around 2.5-3 hrs daily. Then I saw the tree get wrinkly so I moved it out of the sun and now Idk if it's the roots dying due to over watering or under watering.

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

T

I have not experienced problems after repotting, even after severe root reduction. You are correct that trees with fewer roots cannot take water from the soil but water is very important after root reduction because many root tips have been removed. The tree still needs water but has to get it all through a few remaining root tips until the new ones can grow which can take from 1 week to several months depending on species and time of year. A dry soil makes it difficult for the remaining roots to get enough water to keep the trees alive.
With some of our Australian native species that we root prune in spring and summer like tropicals they seem to recover better if the pot is kept in a shallow tray of water so it never dries out. After new roots are established the tray can be removed and go back to normal watering. even a few hours of dry can kill a tree with compromised roots.
I always water well after any repotting and have not seen issues as a result. Far more trees die from lack of water than from a little extra. Deciduous trees that are root pruned while dormant in winter is a completely different thing. Those trees are not using much water and the dormant roots cannot heal the cuts straight away. Just damp is better after repotting deciduous species in the dormant season

There are several related issues here.
Small trees with few roots in large pots are at risk. Soil with no roots can go toxic so the pot should be large enough for the tree to grow properly but not so big it cannot fill the space with roots. Your larger particle soil with mostly inorganic should not cause problems as much as a finer soil with lots of organics.
I know that ficus and citrus respond far better when root pruned in warmer weather so they recover fast. When repotted in the dormant season they do not recover well and problems start.

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience!

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

Well, I am not as experienced as some of the members here, but if I used your substrate in my climate, I'll probably have to water every 3-4 hours!

It seems that you are applying knowledge/techniques written for vastly different climate than yours (which I've been guilty of in the past).

Your soil is drier than what I use for p. afra which is a succulent btw.

What do u check before you know it's time to water?
And I don't understand if it's over or under watering as the soil is quite loose but it stays moist for a couple of days. The particles are quite big, larger than 4mm.
What do u reckon will happen if I water such a mix again and again? Will it get overwatered, I'm not sure because it's very coarse and the air filled spaces are quite large as the particles are large.

 

[Ujjawal Roy]

I

Missing ingredient is instinct. Most worthwhile and gained largely by experience.

just feel that if I just keep learning new things then I'll keep killing trees and when will that time come when I'll know enough to make them flourish and grow properly so that I can start the bonsai process on them. I am still struggling with the horticulture part of it, styling and designing looks very far into the future