Summer Candle-Pruning for 2-needle pines

[Ang3lfir3]

We use the "alternative" method if you will ... this has always been the way we prune JBP tho we don't leave stubs.... growth is left alone in weak areas until it strengthens...

we will start candle pruning in July... I'll do one early as a demo to the club later this week but shouldn't be a problem

 

[Dan W.]

Brian, do you mind sharing how you treat your ponderosas and other 2 needle pines besides the JRP and JBP? A thread on 5 needle pines would be great also, if you or someone else has experience with them.

I allways learn a lot from your posts. Thanks for taking the time to write.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Dan (i know you didn't ask me but ima answer you any ways ) .... we treat ponderosa similar to JBP except that we remove the terminal bud in fall.

for 5 needle pines like I don't know maybe pinus flexilis not only in candling different but so is overall care. 5 needle pines in general usually only push once a year.... you will want to feed lightly or not all up until the needles open on the candle.... then feed like mad.... cut the extension back to a few sets of needles.... buds should form in the remaining section ... the reason for the late start at feeding is to keep the needles close to the location of the extension (ie avoiding the creation of the needless section of extension)

^^ that is at least true for Japanese white pine .... for now it seems safe to assume its true for other white pines

pinus flexilis is a subject I hope to work with more in the coming future...

 

[Dan W.]

Thanks Eric,

I love the white pines. I'm hope to find a nice JWP that Isn't grafted sometime... I'm also starting to play around with some of the natives though. I have a couple of small flexilis and an aristata that will grow out for a while.

I've never heard of ponderosas making two pushes... They seem significantly slower...? (or could that just be the collected trees having been slowed down for decades/centuries by nature?) I read recently that one nursery who has been working with them for some time now is beginning to see their vigor pick up significantly, several years after collection. They are treating them more and more like JBP. I havn't found any detailed reports yet on long term ponderosa development. Larry Jackals book seems like a good starting point.

I know that many of you have been working with collected pondys much longer than me. I have some nice ones now and want to start off on the right path with them.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

not two pushes but it seems to form buds .... then again I haven't verified in awhile ... we have seen Pondies doing surprisingly well this year all over the area .... so they are super strong ....

Larry Jackals book seems like a good starting point.

Read it... read it again... and then do everything it says [Heck I need to read it again tonight]

 

[Dan W.]

Read it... read it again... and then do everything it says [Heck I need to read it again tonight]

Haha! I have read it a few times and it's been incredibly helpful, but I like to get different perspectives from several different sources if they're available.

 

[cmeg1]

Here is my learning pine.The method I am employing is similiar to method #1.I am going to cut off weak shoots at same time I strip needles of the strong.Then when the weak re-bud I will remove the stong bare stalks that I left.The bottom branches all have a strong fork with weaker interior shoots.I think I may act in the first month of july because I want the buds small on this little tree.

 

[mcpesq817]

Here is my learning pine.The method I am employing is similiar to method #1.I am going to cut off weak shoots at same time I strip needles of the strong.Then when the weak re-bud I will remove the stong bare stalks that I left.The bottom branches all have a strong fork with weaker interior shoots.

What's your goal with this tree? If you want to develop it for a possible bonsai in the future, I wouldn't be doing the JBP techniques just yet. Instead, I would keep as many shoots as possible, especially low on the tree, to develop a stronger, thicker base. Just be careful with the whorls, as if you have too many shoots off a whorl, you might get bulging which ruins taper.

If you just want to some practice on it, then you can probably start now, but in all honesty, I don't think you'll learn very much. Better in my opinion to keep growing it out for a couple of years while learning how pines grow and how to use sacrifice branches to build trunk bulk and taper, and then try the JBP techniques on the future once the tree has a better foundation.

 

[cmeg1]

"What's your goal with this tree?"

My goal with this tree is small pine with short needles and a balenced array of branches arising from forks.And possibly in the apex using forks to make a new apex and side branch every time.And to just see how it looks in many years.There are many growers in japan who use the slow growing up method without using sacrifice branches for monster trunks.I guess it is similiar to growing from seed accept it is a graft.Thanks

 

[mcpesq817]

"What's your goal with this tree?"

My goal with this tree is small pine with short needles and a balenced array of branches arising from forks.And possibly in the apex using forks to make a new apex and side branch every time.And to just see how it looks in many years.There are many growers in japan who use the slow growing up method without using sacrifice branches for monster trunks.I guess it is similiar to growing from seed accept it is a graft.Thanks

I wasn't suggesting that you needed 10' sacrifice branches to grow a monster trunk on this one. You do need branches to help build bulk in the lower trunk though. Even in Japan I would expect that they are using sacrifice principles (grow out, cut back, etc.). The JBP techniques are more intended to help refine the tree once you have the trunk you want (or close to the one you want). If you needle thin and cut back candles now, your trunk will not thicken.

In my experience, JBPs are pretty slow to put on any bulk in the trunk. I put an 8" tall 1/2" caliper trunk JBP in the ground three years ago. Today it's about 8' tall, and the trunk is probably only 2" in caliper. So the best thing to do is to keep as much growth on the trunk as possible at this stage, particularly as low as possible.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is an update from the same shoot shown in Post #17, 2.5 weeks later.


Also, this morning, this year's candles were removed from this black pine. Because the balance was pretty good, I removed all the shoots at once, leaving a small stub on the stronger shoots, and cut the smaller shoots flush. The strong area this year was the first left branch, and the middle area on the right side of the tree. The left branch is stronger because it was candle-pruned a bit too early last year. Leaving some stubs, ideally, will balance out the needle length around the tree.

Before:


After:

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

And, to give a sense of how much slower my JRP (still very early in development) is to regrow candles:

May 13, before candle-pruning:


May 13, after candle-pruning:


And today, nearly 7 weeks later:

 

[Dan W.]

Brian, I purchased this small JRP from Bill Valavanis at the convention in Denver in June... He advised me to candle prune when I got home, and I had recently read this post... It helped tremendously! I pruned all of the candles on June 25-26, leaving longer stubs on the strongest candles. Anyway, here is the tree now with new candles opening:

......

Thanks for this great thread and teaching so clearly!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Good stuff Dan! My JRP in post 32 had some root rot last year, thought it was turning a corner, but declined over the last month, so it's in the ground in a very rocky soil. Hopefully that will work.

The black pine that I candle pruned in one phase is much slower coming back this year, the conclusion I'm drawing is that 3-stage candle cutting is kinder to the tree's health. Anyone else experimenting with these 2 techniques finding this to be the case? Here is a shot from about a week ago:

All things equal, it has every reason to grow harder this year...milder weather, not repotted this year, fed just the same. Normally by now, candles would be >1" and opening. I think it still has plenty of time to set buds and harden off before cold weather, but I'm not convinced this is the best method for the tree.

 

[tmmason10]

Brian this is the first year I've decandled a pine, and I tried the all at once method. It seemed to start popping bids right away but lately I've been wondering if they've been taking too long to open up. They are really just starting to extend into needles now, which I'm hoping isn't too late. A couple of buds are lagging behind even that point. Maybe next year I'll, try the three stages and see how it goes.

 

[Thomas J.]

I don't have any problem with mine doing all the decandeling at one sitting. Out of my six JBPs, only one has given me problems with the new buds, but then that tree is the oldest and has always been a bit on the weak side ever since purchase. All the others are popping good and I don't worry about size right now because November is a long way off and by then when I start doing my needle pulling, the buds are usually a bit bigger than I would like them to be anyhow. I have just begun starting my fertilizing since the decandeling by using fish emulsion which is a somewhat weak fertilizer than I usually use.

 

[Dav4]

I de-candled my JRP all in one go the first week of July. My tree is a bit behind yours, but so far, so good. I'll give an update and pic in a week or two.

 

[Adair M]

Brian,

My JBP are acting just like yours. In fact, the new buds look more like needle buds rather than new candles. I did mine on July 3rd this year.

I'm thinking it's weather related. I'm in NE GA and we had an unusually mild winter last winter. Maybe the buds didn't get set properly.

Or maybe it was the super hot summer. It was about 100 degrees when I decandled.

 

[yamins]

I think it's hard to say whether the difference between the two candle pruning techniques is responsible for the difference in observed vigor after decandling -- or whether it's due to other factors (like the weather, or the amount of fertilizer residue built up in the soil, or the amount of strength built/sapped by compounding the previous years of decandling practices, &c).

Last year I used the three stage method on my 20+ JBPs. This year I used the "all at once" method. However, last year my trees responded somewhat restrainedly, whereas this year they have been very very vigorous. I kind of think this difference between the two years' results (and between my results and yours) is more likely due to factors outside of our control or understanding instead of the rational methods we apply!

Does anyone else have experience with directly comparing the "three stage" with the "all at once" method, especially with trees of the same strength in the same year?

 

[garywood]

@ Yamis over 25 years ago, when I started. The "3 stage" technique was the only way that was known to most people. 10-15 years ago the "all at once" technique was introduced. They produce the same results if there is an understanding of needle management and an understanding of what a trees overall strength compared with each zone. I think needle management, for strength and balance, and knowing when/how to fertilize is much more important.
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/