Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
The current trunk is almost 2 ft tall. I was thinking 24" -28" total height with the first chop around 12". That's a pretty tall tree already.
Species Study - Acer Saccharum/Acer Saccharinum
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Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Just trying to point out optionsSo chop chop it will be
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Bro you have more collecting success than I do . So I’m reluctant to tell you when to do anything. But a chop height was decided when you collected the tree . The tree responded and has put energy into budding out. It needs to recover . A second chop so shortly after collection . Will at the least slow the tree and not achieve better budding or could kill the tree . Hence the air layer idea
. If you have to let it grow and recover . Might as well plan on air layer the top off. When it is recovered. If you only want one . I would slow recovering . Than chop above a lower branch . With the plan of that being the apex . Chop above intended height for die back.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
It is recovering.Bro you have more collecting success than I do . So I’m reluctant to tell you when to do anything. But a chop height was decided when you collected the tree . The tree responded and has put energy into budding out. It needs to recover . A second chop so shortly after collection . Will at the least slow the tree and not achieve better budding or could kill the tree . Hence the air layer idea
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Perhaps you misunderstand the point I’m trying to make . Yes the tree is recovering from collection and is pushing growth . But I would not subject the tree to another chop . This spring . I would allow the tree to grow strength . And recover for a year . Feed the tree and gain strength . Then if you want to chop it do it next year . For better chance at good results . The air layer idea , is at that time the top bay be worth air layer . To reuse it and not just throw it away , the radial budding around the top . And the radial roots from a layer. Could make a great broom style but it’s your tree . All I’m really saying is second chop now I had some risk . The older me tends to have better success working trees a little slower . Slow down to speed up so to speak ,
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
I won’t chop this spring for sure. The second chop will be at the beginning of second growing season or next spring.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
I like that strong bud facing the front in the pic 1/2 way up . I would chop above that and train that as new Apex . To grow and heal the wound
Pulled from the stand of trees in my side yard today. This I believe is the offspring of a larger Sugar not too far away that displayed the same brilliant orange leaves, though not a scion. It was basically coming straight up out of another more mature tree’s root system, didn’t do a good job with perspective this is a hefty boy. Now my largest tree by far. Wanted to go big for this species, hope it recovers well! Due to the tap root going straight down below the much larger tree it was growing up against I was not able to get much in the way of roots at all. Hoping what I did get is enough.
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Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Good luck . How much light do you have it in
I’ve got it positioned to where it’s pretty much in dappled sun at most throughout the day, receiving the most direct but still obscured about 1-3 PM.
Here is my general setup and then where I have this tree at current, have plenty of more shaded options if you think that might be better at first. This side of my deck is southern exposure, pretty much full sun all afternoon and evening after it clears a tall stand of Loblollies that block most direct sun from about 10/11-1.
I can put some shade cloth above if necessary as well.
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Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
We are all here in pretty much . Un charted waters .that’s the point of the thread to share . Your set up seems fine . Myself I dug up a 8 footer 2 years ago . Did not cut it back . ( I liked the top was thinking of air layering it ) eventually . It leafed out and then slowly lost energy and died as the summer progressed . Root wise I would say I got a reasonable amount . ( confident if it was red or silver it would of lived ) tree was in semi shade protected from wind . These trees are climax trees . They take over forests . Because they make deep shade that only there seedlings can survive . But when they get light they take off in growth . These are not understory trees . That want dappled light . I’m curious if we dug one up and just stuck it in full sun what would happen . Might be only one way to find out
It’s definitely an interesting thought. In my limited experience it seems the conventional wisdom is shelter the tree as it has undergone a massive shock of being not only being topped severely but also literally uprooted almost entirely from its established root system. However maybe if and when it begins to show signs of life an accelerated “graduation” to more full sun exposure may be appropriate as to give it its most preferred situation. Either way I am taking a big swing on my first big dig. I’ve had good luck thus far with but much more bulletproof species.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I think sugar maple, Acer saccharum, is a species that needs to be worked with, and collectively we should document our successes and failures because I think this species could make an excellent bonsai. The point of bringing up JM was to demonstrate by comparison what traits we look for in bonsai. Clearly silver maple, is largely lacking in traits that would make it stand out at a bonsai show.
Now, Acer x freemanii which is (A. rubrum x A. saccharinum) or (A. saccharinum x A. rubrum), the Freeman maple, commonly used as a street tree, is a silver maple hybrid. It has the benefit of GOOD autumn color that persists in a fair number of its cultivars. That trait alone would make Acer x freemanii worth working with as bonsai. It also has hybrid vigor so it is as vigorous or slightly more vigorous than the species silver maple. But in general genetically pure silver maples have no traits that will stand out on a bonsai bench, I recommend those that don't already have one on their benches to give the silvers a pass and seek out x freemanii or Acer rubrum or Acer saccharum as your alternatives. Just sayin'.
HOW LOW TO CHOP? on a collected deciduous trunk. This is a guideline, not a "rule", no penalties is you ignore me here. I usually chop at about 1/3rd the final height I envision. If I want a 3 foot tall tree, chop at 1 foot. Want a 12 inch tall tree, chop at 4 inches. The generalized pattern for bonsai is first third is trunk, second third is major branching, last third is the tertiary branching and leaves. Give or take a little most award winning bonsai break down to roughly these proportions. The proportions are visually pleasing and our minds expect them. ONE CAN DEPART WILDLY from this "guideline" if one has an artistic idea or goal in mind. But if you don't know what to do, follow the "rule of the thirds" .
When looking for what to do, before you cut anything, ask yourself what is the most attractive aspect of the tree sitting on the bench in front of me. And then ask what this tree's most attractive "future traits" might be. Then design to highlight these traits.
So if the trunk has an attractive bend, that's something to keep in mind, don't cut it away. If in the future autumn leaves are the best seasonal feature, a design with many twigs to display a nice dome or cloud of colorful leaves would be better than a design that keeps the tree sparse and focuses on deadwood or something. Adapt design to the tree in front of you. If you are not certain, another year or two in a grow box will not hurt.
Now, Acer x freemanii which is (A. rubrum x A. saccharinum) or (A. saccharinum x A. rubrum), the Freeman maple, commonly used as a street tree, is a silver maple hybrid. It has the benefit of GOOD autumn color that persists in a fair number of its cultivars. That trait alone would make Acer x freemanii worth working with as bonsai. It also has hybrid vigor so it is as vigorous or slightly more vigorous than the species silver maple. But in general genetically pure silver maples have no traits that will stand out on a bonsai bench, I recommend those that don't already have one on their benches to give the silvers a pass and seek out x freemanii or Acer rubrum or Acer saccharum as your alternatives. Just sayin'.
HOW LOW TO CHOP? on a collected deciduous trunk. This is a guideline, not a "rule", no penalties is you ignore me here. I usually chop at about 1/3rd the final height I envision. If I want a 3 foot tall tree, chop at 1 foot. Want a 12 inch tall tree, chop at 4 inches. The generalized pattern for bonsai is first third is trunk, second third is major branching, last third is the tertiary branching and leaves. Give or take a little most award winning bonsai break down to roughly these proportions. The proportions are visually pleasing and our minds expect them. ONE CAN DEPART WILDLY from this "guideline" if one has an artistic idea or goal in mind. But if you don't know what to do, follow the "rule of the thirds" .
When looking for what to do, before you cut anything, ask yourself what is the most attractive aspect of the tree sitting on the bench in front of me. And then ask what this tree's most attractive "future traits" might be. Then design to highlight these traits.
So if the trunk has an attractive bend, that's something to keep in mind, don't cut it away. If in the future autumn leaves are the best seasonal feature, a design with many twigs to display a nice dome or cloud of colorful leaves would be better than a design that keeps the tree sparse and focuses on deadwood or something. Adapt design to the tree in front of you. If you are not certain, another year or two in a grow box will not hurt.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Over in "Flowers" Gabler posted flowers of Acer x freemanii - if you are interested. Not as red as Acer rubrum, but more colorful than Acer sacharinum flowers
Gabler
Masterpiece
There's a wide variance in Acer x freemanii leaf and flower colors, as well as leaf size and internode length. On average, I'm finding that Acer rubrum has better bonsai potential than its hybrid offspring, but certain individual A. x freemanii are excellent. Sow lots of seeds and pick the best ones. They grow fast.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
As I said before . Only with my limited use myself . Observations , from trees in my town . Especially even my street and property red and silver maple . Seeds from the reds , produce reds . Seeds from the silvers produce . 
Often different leaf types , so I’m thinking hybrids come from silver trees. , keep in mind you can collect silver seeds . On my street with a snow shovel , in 1 block there are 5 massive trees . I have one silver that , has deep
Cut leaves and one that produces red fall colour . ( unfortunately it will have to have the top air layered off ) these were collected from gardens on my street , there is one mature that . Colours red every year . But the seeds do not produce trees that do , a silver that turns red in fall still don’t last as Long as a red . Silver grows on you like @Leo in N E Illinois . I once never considered it worthwhile . It’s vigor and nice summer colour . Is changing my mind . As for sugar . Just noticed inspecting my winter stored trees . ( there coming out this weekend which will be a early record ) something had ate the 2 lower branches off my black maple ( 2 year old )
Often different leaf types , so I’m thinking hybrids come from silver trees. , keep in mind you can collect silver seeds . On my street with a snow shovel , in 1 block there are 5 massive trees . I have one silver that , has deepCut leaves and one that produces red fall colour . ( unfortunately it will have to have the top air layered off ) these were collected from gardens on my street , there is one mature that . Colours red every year . But the seeds do not produce trees that do , a silver that turns red in fall still don’t last as Long as a red . Silver grows on you like @Leo in N E Illinois . I once never considered it worthwhile . It’s vigor and nice summer colour . Is changing my mind . As for sugar . Just noticed inspecting my winter stored trees . ( there coming out this weekend which will be a early record ) something had ate the 2 lower branches off my black maple ( 2 year old )
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
Rubrum make great trees. They are a pleasure to work with, difficult to do great damage to, very resilient and cold hardy...
Silver as a species reacts well to bonsai culture and technique, but Leo's concerns for "showability" are definitely worth consisdering.
I think all the native maples with longer petioles, larger leaves, and sparser growth require a more controlled/pot-from-the-start plan.
Silver as a species reacts well to bonsai culture and technique, but Leo's concerns for "showability" are definitely worth consisdering.
I think all the native maples with longer petioles, larger leaves, and sparser growth require a more controlled/pot-from-the-start plan.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Sugar observation . My house is over 100 years old 2 story . 10 foot ceilings . High roof . Sugar planted 12 feet from north side of house . In heavy shade from the house in the last 3 years it has reached the roof . So it has access to full sun , the growth it had put on is just short if fantastic . All up high chasing the sun . It also has stopped producing seeds
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Cmd5235
Chumono
I’ll jump in on that when you get up here, we can go find some maples to murder
Gabler
Masterpiece
I had a similar thought. I planted a whole bunch of Acer rubrum seeds last spring because I was finding that the wild saplings I had collected were lacking in buds at the lower part of the trunk—not to mention the roots tend to be a mess. I chose seeds from street trees with smaller leaves with deep red coloration. I suspect they were a named cultivar. The seeds were planted on top of a layer of NAPA 8822 and covered in sphagnum moss. They had plenty of moisture, but the inorganic substrate seemed to slow their growth and promote more branching.
The seedlings recently started to awaken from dormancy, so I separated them into their own pots with a mix of vermiculite and perlite, top-dressed with 8822 to weigh it down, and then dressed again with sphagnum moss to prevent moisture loss.
The internodes are pretty short, and some of the seedlings already have some branching. I'm hoping that the hard root pruning I gave them slows their growth in the early part of the season and creates more short internodes. Then, I'll let them take off and send out long shoots to thicken up quickly with lots of fertilizer. A similar method would likely help for other coarse maples.
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