Source of Japanese white pine seedlings

Adair M said:
I think it’s perfectly legal for him to mail you some seeds. What were you talking about?
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This is from the website of the Dept of Homeland Security and specifically U.S. Customs and Border protection


General Guidelines:​

Fruits, Vegetables, and Plants

Depending on the country of origin, some fruits, vegetables, and plants may be brought into the United States without advance permission, provided they are declared, inspected, and found free of pests. However, certain plants and ANY plant parts intended for growing (propagative) require a foreign phytosanitary certificate in advance. For information on certificates, contact the USDA/APHIS Plant Protection and Quarantine Permit Unit at (301) 851-2046 or (877) 770-5990 Also, check the Information Resources section at the end of this notice for details.

That sounds like work to me, and I'm risk averse when it comes to crossing authority figures like traffic cops and the U.S. Federal Govt.
 
Dav4 said:
This is from the website of the Dept of Homeland Security and specifically U.S. Customs and Border protection


General Guidelines:​

Fruits, Vegetables, and Plants

Depending on the country of origin, some fruits, vegetables, and plants may be brought into the United States without advance permission, provided they are declared, inspected, and found free of pests. However, certain plants and ANY plant parts intended for growing (propagative) require a foreign phytosanitary certificate in advance. For information on certificates, contact the USDA/APHIS Plant Protection and Quarantine Permit Unit at (301) 851-2046 or (877) 770-5990 Also, check the Information Resources section at the end of this notice for details.

That sounds like work to me, and I'm risk averse when it comes to crossing authority figures like traffic cops and the U.S. Federal Govt.
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@Dav4 I have an import permit from the USDA to import the Genus Pinus (2 & 3 needle pine is banned) and Rhododendrum indicum. My permit is specific only to Japan. While what you copied above is true, the USDA has a plant book that further breaks down what is and what is not authorized in terms of importation. For Japan importation of seeds from the Genus Pinus spp. is not regulated, only live plant material is. However the importation of 2 or 3 needle pine from Japan is forbidden. 5 needle pine is authorized, but there is further regulations onto the caliper of the trunk/stem. All live material requires a phytosanitary certificate to ensure no pests or deceases are introduced onto US soil.

There was a thread a while back on here about a member ordering some seeds and the seeds got confiscated from the USDA at customs and then wanting to blame the seller. In all actuality it's the members fault for not researching what is or isn't required to import those seeds....first if it is even authorized, second the species, third from that country. It can get complicated which is why people don't want to spend the time to inform themselves of the regulations. That's why if you want to play in the game you have to know the rules. If you follow the rules "Big Brother" can't really do anything as they make the rules for us to follow.

One example....... Importation of 2 or 3 needle pine from Japan is forbidden. However importation of 2 or 3 needle pine is authorized from South Korea with a phytosanitary certificate......but upon arrival onto US soil the plants must quarantine in an authorized and approved holding area that must be separated from any other plant material by a certain distance for a certain amount of time......and you must accept regular inspections from the USDA announce and unannounced.

So if you can source out some JWP seed, get some for me too! The only issue with JWP seed is that their viability rate drops fast if not stored properly. You can order a couple of pounds of seed and if those seeds are left out in the sun or a hot warehouse you could loose 50% or more of the seed. Then when it's time to sow and you get a poor germination rate you think you got bad seeds when in all actuality the seeds were good while the storage wasn't. If I could find a source I wouldn't mind ordering a few pounds, but it's what I mentioned above about the storage that concerns me.
 
Pitoon said:
@Dav4 I have an import permit from the USDA to import the Genus Pinus (2 & 3 needle pine is banned) and Rhododendrum indicum. My permit is specific only to Japan. While what you copied above is true, the USDA has a plant book that further breaks down what is and what is not authorized in terms of importation. For Japan importation of seeds from the Genus Pinus spp. is not regulated, only live plant material is. However the importation of 2 or 3 needle pine from Japan is forbidden. 5 needle pine is authorized, but there is further regulations onto the caliper of the trunk/stem. All live material requires a phytosanitary certificate to ensure no pests or deceases are introduced onto US soil.

There was a thread a while back on here about a member ordering some seeds and the seeds got confiscated from the USDA at customs and then wanting to blame the seller. In all actuality it's the members fault for not researching what is or isn't required to import those seeds....first if it is even authorized, second the species, third from that country. It can get complicated which is why people don't want to spend the time to inform themselves of the regulations. That's why if you want to play in the game you have to know the rules. If you follow the rules "Big Brother" can't really do anything as they make the rules for us to follow.

One example....... Importation of 2 or 3 needle pine from Japan is forbidden. However importation of 2 or 3 needle pine is authorized from South Korea with a phytosanitary certificate......but upon arrival onto US soil the plants must quarantine in an authorized and approved holding area that must be separated from any other plant material by a certain distance for a certain amount of time......and you must accept regular inspections from the USDA announce and unannounced.

So if you can source out some JWP seed, get some for me too! The only issue with JWP seed is that their viability rate drops fast if not stored properly. You can order a couple of pounds of seed and if those seeds are left out in the sun or a hot warehouse you could loose 50% or more of the seed. Then when it's time to sow and you get a poor germination rate you think you got bad seeds when in all actuality the seeds were good while the storage wasn't. If I could find a source I wouldn't mind ordering a few pounds, but it's what I mentioned above about the storage that concerns me.
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Thanks for the info. It seems that you've done your research! Frankly, between the difficulty sourcing seeds and questionable germination rates even if you can find it... and having viable options like P. sylvestris and densiflora... I'm apt to not look so hard for the seeds at this point. If Schumacher sends me some, I'll let you know. For now, I'll probably grab a seedling or two from Matt and hope to get something seed wise to plant this spring. Thanks again!
 
Dav4 said:
Thanks for the info. It seems that you've done your research! Frankly, between the difficulty sourcing seeds and questionable germination rates even if you can find it... and having viable options like P. sylvestris and densiflora... I'm apt to not look so hard for the seeds at this point. If Schumacher sends me some, I'll let you know. For now, I'll probably grab a seedling or two from Matt and hope to get something seed wise to plant this spring. Thanks again!
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I'm hoping to open my nursery in the distant future so the research has to be done. Interstate rules is just as bad.....particularly the west coast states. Densiflora has been hard to get as well. It seems the best option is to buy some property and plant some trees and grow them out for seed collection. If I can find some parviflora seed I will PM you.
 
Pitoon said:
I'm hoping to open my nursery in the distant future so the research has to be done. Interstate rules is just as bad.....particularly the west coast states. Densiflora has been hard to get as well. It seems the best option is to buy some property and plant some trees and grow them out for seed collection. If I can find some parviflora seed I will PM you.
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I had an order at Schumacher pending for months, just received it yesterday, form says JWP crop failed, but they sent a packet anyway?
 
Mike Westervelt said:
I had an order at Schumacher pending for months, just received it yesterday, form says JWP crop failed, but they sent a packet anyway?
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Their website has shown seeds unavailable for months now. I would open a few to see if they are viable.
 
I picked up a few JWP from Johnsteen’s in early February. I think they’re sold out now, but it might be worth checking back again later in case they get some more in.
 
Mike Westervelt said:
They look plump and viable, soaking now and will warm/cold stratify as recommended and see what happens
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Good luck! JWP seeds take forever to germinate. It would really suck to wait all that time and nothing happens.
 
Does anyone know of a good source for JWP in the UK? Everywhere looks to be out of stock 😥
 
Just bought some of these from Brussels supposedly 8 years old $129. They are grafted Try an airlayerIMG_8988.jpg IMG_9101.jpg
 
I stopped by my local nursery the other day as they were having their end of season sale. They had the usual grafted JWP but all of them had large cones open and readily dropping seeds all over the ground cloth that the trees were sitting on. I pocketed a few but then just to keep things kosher I asked one of the employees if I could take the seeds and they’re response was “have at it”. Just a thought for anyone still looking for JWP seed… Tis the season.
 
Back in early 1990's I tried importing orchids from Indonesia. I tried to do so legally. Got the permits. At that time, 5 pieces of paper per plant were required, all have to be together when the plant hits USA port of entry, 3 from importer (me) and 2 from exporter (Indonesia). Got it all done nice and legal. 3 times out of 3 attempts plants were seized and destroyed. Gave up. From then on just paid the premium to buy plants already in USA. Got the paperwork from the destroyed plants. It sure looked like everything was in order, agent had some bogus reason for destroying each shipment, none having to do with plant disease. If we were in the same town I would have strangled him. But port of entry is Miami for orchids.

Something to be aware of, not all ports of entry can or will handle all genera of plants. You should ask your agent which port of entry your seed or trees should be going through. 3 decades ago cycads could only come through San Diego, orchids through Miami. So when planning to import, talk to your customs agents about which ports of entry to use and seriously consider using a customs expediter, a private company which for a fee, will walk your shipment through customs. There are freight expediters that specialize in nursery plants.
 
Seed of most members of the white pine group, the 5 needle pines, only has an 18 month shelf life. Meaning germination rates when stored cool and dry in a refrigerator will drop below 50% sometime after 18 months. This includes strobus and parviflora (JWP).

Contrast, Pinus thunbergii (JBP) the shelf life cool and dry, as in a refrigerator, the shelf life is listed as 10 years. Most of the 2 needle pines have 10 year shelf lives.
 
So with these JWP seeds that I just collected, can I just put them in some substrate and leave them outside for the winter and hope for seedlings in the spring? Is there anything I can do to increase my odds? Can’t get them any fresher I don’t think.
 
They generally require warm stratification before cold. I tried them twice and gave up.
 
Well, I have good news and bad news regarding the Shumacher JWP seeds.
Followed the 60 day warm moist/90 cold stratification instructions and got nearly 100% germination........
Just as I was ready to do the happy dance, mother fucking squirrels uprooted every single one of them.
Guess the lesson here is we need to time germination to occur in a season when those little bastards aren't busy caching their winter meals
 
penumbra said:
They generally require warm stratification before cold. I tried them twice and gave up.
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Noted, so… how do they germinate in the wild? Would they experience the “warm stratification” as the summer following the fall that the seeds drop? Alternatively would they experience that in the summer within the cone? I guess I have some research to do. I always thought that manual stratification of seeds was to mimic the seasonal experience of the seed in nature.
 
Sounds right, not sure about the timing in their natural environment but seems like they would sprout in the spring, giving them all summer and fall to get established, whereas I started the 60 day warm/ 90 day cold stratification process
in the spring when the seeds arrived which put germination in September, fine weatherwise but not for the aforementioned dastardly rodents.
 
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