Sometimes PH matters

[Srt8madness]

I thought lead pipes went out with the Romans but find it wasn't banned until the 1930s
I don't think there's significant lead pipes anywhere in Australia but reticulated water is still treated to raise pH above 6.5 in all water supply systems.
Lead is a part of solder which was used to join copper pipes but was banned here in 1989. One source says there's enough lead from soldered joints to bring water above safe limits.
I also found that brass which is commonly used for tapware and joiners can have up to 3% lead and there's now a 3 year phase out of any lead in plumbing fittings, starting in 2023.

Acid water can also damage distribution and consumer pipes.
Acidic water can slowly corrode copper and therefore damage residential pipework. We experienced this first hand at my previous property where we used well water which turned out to be acidic. The water dissolved the hot water tank and a brass pipe through the wall before I realised what was happening. Fortunately no lasting health issues but my teenage daughter complained about her blonde hair turning green. Copper poisoning has also been noted in some areas due to acidic water in copper water heaters.
Acidic water can also slowly corrode cement based pipes. I'd say there would be far more cement pipes than lead pipes so another reason for water authorities to raise pH of reticulated water.

There is some mention of pH affecting the flocculation process which is used to remove dirt, particles and other contaminants from the water but it appears that high pH is detrimental so raising pH is done after flocculation.

And, finally back to @Joe Dupre'
pH of water always matters for all the reasons given so far and more. Sometimes it is not fatal but it has always affected a range of plant growth factors.

As a father of daughters, I can dang well imagine that she did!!
Crazy that in the 21st century, safe drinking water is still far from a given.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

Interesting
My house was built in 1987 or 1988 so if the builder followed the rules, my pipes shouldn't have the lead solder. Do you know what was used after 1986 to solder copper pipes?

What bonsai nut said is correct. Metals like silver, antimony, tin, and even transitional metals like molybdenum are used in various combinations to try to emulate the flow characteristics of leaded solders. Unfortunately, plumbers are human and resist change just like the rest of us. The “silver” solders required higher temperatures (read: new torch) and you had to learn to work a little differently than how you were accustomed. Consequently, a lot of the older guys I worked with would still use leaded solders whenever they thought they could get away with it. If you had any new work done AND it was properly permitted back in the late eighties, the plumbing inspectors would swab a joint or two in order to test for lead. If you have any concerns, I believe you can purchase a test kit and swab your water piping joints yourself.

 

[Jrmcmich]

So I did buy a probe and measured 7.6 for my tap water. would it be advisable to try to reduce this for watering?

 

[MHBonsai]

So I did buy a probe and measured 7.6 for my tap water. would it be advisable to try to reduce this for watering?

Most likely you are fine. If your trees are in soils that are totally non-acidic, or you get very little rain, or you have a lot of azaleas/gardenias you may need to throw something at it occasionally to acidify.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

As I said before - for majority of plants we grow for bonsai - pH is TRIVIAL. So do not get over-worked on the topic of pH.

This does require some explanation. All plants to a significant degree can and DO actively buffer the pH of the soil water film around their root tips to suite their ideal range for mineral and nutrient absorption. The scientific paper I read was by John Atwood, PhD, Unv MI at Ann Arbor, back in the 1980's. There have been further studies. Atwood went to Sumatra, and measured the pH of the water film surrounding the root tips of an orchid that clings to vertical limestone cliff faces. The rain water running over this cliff face had a pH that was above 8 due to the limestone. Yet the water film against the roots of the orchid had been buffered to roughlyh 5.0 to 5.5 pH, This was in the wild, Later in the lab in Michigan, it was demonstrated that the pH of the irrigation water could be varied over a fairly wide range, yet this species of orchid would buffer the pH of the water film around its root tip to roughly 5,0 to 5,5 pH which was apparently ideal for the orchid known to live only on Karst structures in Sumatra.

If you do a literature search, turns out where ever investigated, most groups of plants do indeed buffer the water film around their root tips into the idea range for nutrient absorption for that genus.

The right size pot, the plant can buffer the quantity of media to ideal range. Over pot, and the plant fails to thrive because its buffer capacity has been over-whelmed. This explains the beneficial effect of a "community pot" for small seedlings.

Again, irrigation water pH anywhere vaguely inside the buffer capacity range where a plant can effectively control pH the plant grows fine, stress free. Use water wildly out of buffer capacity of the plant and the plant will be stress.

By and large, if the water does not kill your lawn, its not going to kill your trees. Keep pH below 8.9 and above 4.5 and most trees will be happy.

Some rhododendron and carnivorous plants are exceptions, but they are worth their own threads.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I've been doing a bit more research and experimenting with my new ph meter. I made a small sample of my soil mix------equal parts DE, SafeTsorb and composted pine bark. I added distilled water (tested at 5.5 ph), mixed and let set for 10 minutes. I strained off the liquid and got a ph reading of 5.1. Research shows that DE is approx. 7 ph. Composted pine bark averages 5.5 ph. Fullers earth ( the base of SafeTsorb) runs 6-10 ph.

So, I'd have to say my soil is in the neighborhood of 5.1 or so. Factor in my tap water that runs right at 8 ph and my heavy feeding with Miracle-Gro twice a month, and I probably have a realistic environment in my pots of about 6 ph or a bit more. From what I've read, that ph is a pretty good range for most trees I've studied. I've been giving my maple, junipers, mulberries, bougies and one patio blueberry a dose of Miracid, and they seem to be happy.

My take-away is this. If you have trees that are not thriving and just don't seem to respond to normal fixes, check the ph requirements. My friend almost lost a $400 trident because of ...............water.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Still more research. Akadama has a listed ph of 6.5-6.9. Is that one of the reasons akadama is so prized?? Hmmmmmmm.

 

[ShadyStump]

Still more research. Akadama has a listed ph of 6.5-6.9. Is that one of the reasons akadama is so prized?? Hmmmmmmm.

I've wondered similar things myself. Many of the inorganic soil components we commonly use tend to lean toward the alkaline side of things, so I find myself looking for acidic organics when I use them.
Adjacent, we tend to think of the mineral components as inert and immutable, but many of them CAN and will break down chemically under the right conditions, especially in acidic environments. So how much calcium or whatnot can be released by using Napa 8822 or other diatomaceous earth, for example? Using organics, even if well draining, inherently means decomposition, so what sorts of microbiology is at play along side the chemistry turning the various soil components into entirely new materials, and how much of that is root soluble by what time?

I know that when repotting every 1 to 5 years it's not likely to be a hell of allot in most cases, but it does become quite the rabbit hole if you let yourself think about it too long.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I've wondered similar things myself. Many of the inorganic soil components we commonly use tend to lean toward the alkaline side of things, so I find myself looking for acidic organics when I use them.
Adjacent, we tend to think of the mineral components as inert and immutable, but many of them CAN and will break down chemically under the right conditions, especially in acidic environments. So how much calcium or whatnot can be released by using Napa 8822 or other diatomaceous earth, for example? Using organics, even if well draining, inherently means decomposition, so what sorts of microbiology is at play along side the chemistry turning the various soil components into entirely new materials, and how much of that is root soluble by what time?

I know that when repotting every 1 to 5 years it's not likely to be a hell of allot in most cases, but it does become quite the rabbit hole if you let yourself think about it too long.

I err on the side of organics for the most part. I'll use as much organics as I can get away with and still have adequate drainage and root growth. I've gone to a bit bigger, to sometimes a lot bigger pots.

Organics----- growing plants for 300 million years.

 

[R0b]

As I said before - for majority of plants we grow for bonsai - pH is TRIVIAL. So do not get over-worked on the topic of pH.

This does require some explanation. All plants to a significant degree can and DO actively buffer the pH of the soil water film around their root tips to suite their ideal range for mineral and nutrient absorption. The scientific paper I read was by John Atwood, PhD, Unv MI at Ann Arbor, back in the 1980's. There have been further studies. Atwood went to Sumatra, and measured the pH of the water film surrounding the root tips of an orchid that clings to vertical limestone cliff faces. The rain water running over this cliff face had a pH that was above 8 due to the limestone. Yet the water film against the roots of the orchid had been buffered to roughlyh 5.0 to 5.5 pH, This was in the wild, Later in the lab in Michigan, it was demonstrated that the pH of the irrigation water could be varied over a fairly wide range, yet this species of orchid would buffer the pH of the water film around its root tip to roughly 5,0 to 5,5 pH which was apparently ideal for the orchid known to live only on Karst structures in Sumatra.

If you do a literature search, turns out where ever investigated, most groups of plants do indeed buffer the water film around their root tips into the idea range for nutrient absorption for that genus.

The right size pot, the plant can buffer the quantity of media to ideal range. Over pot, and the plant fails to thrive because its buffer capacity has been over-whelmed. This explains the beneficial effect of a "community pot" for small seedlings.

Again, irrigation water pH anywhere vaguely inside the buffer capacity range where a plant can effectively control pH the plant grows fine, stress free. Use water wildly out of buffer capacity of the plant and the plant will be stress.

By and large, if the water does not kill your lawn, its not going to kill your trees. Keep pH below 8.9 and above 4.5 and most trees will be happy.

Some rhododendron and carnivorous plants are exceptions, but they are worth their own threads.

Wouldn’t the bigger issue be the build up of Calcium carbonate and other minerals. At least cosmetically I find it an issue.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Wouldn’t the bigger issue be the build up of Calcium carbonate and other minerals. At least cosmetically I find it an issue.

I've never found it to be a problem. 8 years, 150 collected trees, grew over 200 tees of about 30 different species and cultivars. Zero problems.

For 300 million years, trees have grown where the seed falls with sunlight, rainwater and a few minerals extracted from the surrounding soil. No need to complicate things. About the only concession for bonsai is proper drainage.

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

I use PH down for people who grow 'other plants' if you catch my drift,

Important to get a grow phase one as it is Nitric Acid, this provides nitrogen for your trees as well as lower the PH

because as BNut demonstrates past a certain PH transition metals are unavailable

Bloom ph down is phosphoric acid which locks up calcium, so is best avoided

Calcium phosphate is what makes up bone! 98% insoluble in water

Calcium nitrate is 98% soluble!

That's deep, man.

 

[Paradox]

Still more research. Akadama has a listed ph of 6.5-6.9. Is that one of the reasons akadama is so prized?? Hmmmmmmm.

Kanuma which most use for azalea is around 6.5

 

[R0b]

I've never found it to be a problem. 8 years, 150 collected trees, grew over 200 tees of about 30 different species and cultivars. Zero problems.

For 300 million years, trees have grown where the seed falls with sunlight, rainwater and a few minerals extracted from the surrounding soil. No need to complicate things. About the only concession for bonsai is proper drainage

In areas where a significant part of water is delivered by rain I don’t expect any problems either. However if you primary source of water is of medium to poor quality and you are growing in an a more arid region and the watering is done sparingly with no “flush”, I would be paying attention to this as a potential limiting factor.

It is too long ago that I studied this topic but why would commercial growers invest a lot in measuring and balancing nutrients and pH especially in hydroponics and artificial substrates (akadama, pumice, lava mix would resemble rockwool more than a nursery mix).

Below just an example of how different minerals / ions influence each other,

Calcium Carbonate Reduces the Effectiveness of Soil-Added Monosilicic Acid in Cucumber Plants - Journal of Soil Science and Plant Nutrition

This study aimed to determine the capacity of monosilicic acid [Si(OH)4] to mitigate nutritional and metabolic disorders in plants induced by high levels of soil calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which raises soil pH and lowers solubility of soil micronutrients. Plants (Cucumis sativus L.) were grown...

link.springer.com

I don’t want to tell anyone how to grow their trees if it works for you keep doing it. If you are having problems and this is not a growing technique issue, the rootball is healthy and so on, but your primary source of water is tap or well water, run or request an analysis report.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In areas where a significant part of water is delivered by rain I don’t expect any problems either. However if you primary source of water is of medium to poor quality and you are growing in an a more arid region and the watering is done sparingly with no “flush”, I would be paying attention to this as a potential limiting factor.

It is too long ago that I studied this topic but why would commercial growers invest a lot in measuring and balancing nutrients and pH especially in hydroponics and artificial substrates (akadama, pumice, lava mix would resemble rockwool more than a nursery mix).

Below just an example of how different minerals / ions influence each other,

Calcium Carbonate Reduces the Effectiveness of Soil-Added Monosilicic Acid in Cucumber Plants - Journal of Soil Science and Plant Nutrition

This study aimed to determine the capacity of monosilicic acid [Si(OH)4] to mitigate nutritional and metabolic disorders in plants induced by high levels of soil calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which raises soil pH and lowers solubility of soil micronutrients. Plants (Cucumis sativus L.) were grown...

link.springer.com

I don’t want to tell anyone how to grow their trees if it works for you keep doing it. If you are having problems and this is not a growing technique issue, the rootball is healthy and so on, but your primary source of water is tap or well water, run or request an analysis report.

The abstract seems to say lime or limestone (calcium carbonate) added to soil seems to slow growth as measured by uptake of monosilicic acid, in cucumbers as the test subject. This does agree with the general idea that if the buffer capacity of the soil, which can be measured or expressed as concentration of calcium carbonate content, if it is too high, it can overwhelm the plant's ability to compensate. Thus interfering with absorption of nutrients such as iron, manganese, and other essential metals.

 

[Jrmcmich]

So I switched my water from softener to make sure it now bypasses softener as I heard added sodium can not be good for bonsai. Also bought ph meter and tried Eric tip to reduce ph using citric acid. Method worked well amd reduce from about 8.5 to 6.5 with about 2 gal water a,d a teaspoon of citric acid. Not sure how to copy video so only link.

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[RoadManDenDron]

So I switched my water from softener to make sure it now bypasses softener as I heard added sodium can not be good for bonsai. Also bought ph meter and tried Eric tip to reduce ph using citric acid. Method worked well amd reduce from about 8.5 to 6.5 with about 2 gal water a,d a teaspoon of citric acid. Not sure how to copy video so only link.

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I use nitric acid aka grow formula ph down from grow shops

Added bonus is it provides nitrogen for the plants as well as reducing PH

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For those of us who are lucky enough to have regular rain. Collecting rain water can be very low tech way to get high quality water. I have 2 open top plastic 55 gallon drums. Just from snow and winter rain, spring usually starts with both of them full. When watering about 25 to 60 trees, this gets me through if we also have our wet normal rain every 5 days or so. During dry spells the rain water is reserved for the azaleas, blueberries and sensitive trees, the junipers and pines tolerate municipal water pretty well.

 

[Jrmcmich]

I’d like to try the rain barrel but have not yet. I notice my maples seem to be affected most so hoping this helps them get to looking better.

 

[shohin_branches]

I thought lead pipes went out with the Romans but find it wasn't banned until the 1930s
I don't think there's significant lead pipes anywhere in Australia but reticulated water is still treated to raise pH above 6.5 in all water supply systems.
Lead is a part of solder which was used to join copper pipes but was banned here in 1989. One source says there's enough lead from soldered joints to bring water above safe limits.
I also found that brass which is commonly used for tapware and joiners can have up to 3% lead and there's now a 3 year phase out of any lead in plumbing fittings, starting in 2023.

Acid water can also damage distribution and consumer pipes.
Acidic water can slowly corrode copper and therefore damage residential pipework. We experienced this first hand at my previous property where we used well water which turned out to be acidic. The water dissolved the hot water tank and a brass pipe through the wall before I realised what was happening. Fortunately no lasting health issues but my teenage daughter complained about her blonde hair turning green. Copper poisoning has also been noted in some areas due to acidic water in copper water heaters.
Acidic water can also slowly corrode cement based pipes. I'd say there would be far more cement pipes than lead pipes so another reason for water authorities to raise pH of reticulated water.

There is some mention of pH affecting the flocculation process which is used to remove dirt, particles and other contaminants from the water but it appears that high pH is detrimental so raising pH is done after flocculation.

And, finally back to @Joe Dupre'
pH of water always matters for all the reasons given so far and more. Sometimes it is not fatal but it has always affected a range of plant growth factors.

In Milwaukee they're still trying to replace all lead service lines in the city. https://city.milwaukee.gov/water/LeadPipes