MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks Velodog, but no need at all to apologize. It was simply a clarification on my part to make sure my response was understood.
Small palmatum
- Thread starter Velodog2
- Start date
Thanks Velodog, but no need at all to apologize. It was simply a clarification on my part to make sure my response was understood.
Velodog2
Chumono
Thinking about literati again and taking Alain's idea to a logical conclusion to me lead here, which is similar to the alternate concept I had four years ago.
If a leader is added that maintains the leftward recurve it works better for me. The cascading branch might still be a little too exaggerated tho. Interesting exercise.
Thanks again for the feedback Sorce! I've noticed in most of my trees, the ones I like anyway, there are always a lot of parallel and perpendicular lines, like a diagonal grid can be superimposed. No single tree is a perfect example, but I think you can see that here and it's very likely I will end up developing the branches to accentuate it. This helps lead to an overall triangular shape as well as multiple sub-triangles, plus lots of sympathetic lines. I don't think about it when I'm styling a tree and it's certainly not unique to my stuff, but when my mind can see lots and lots of interesting interactions like this buried within a tree like secret messages it gets very happy. Without looking back I'm pretty sure you can apply this to Alain's Malus he showed in a different thread.
If a leader is added that maintains the leftward recurve it works better for me. The cascading branch might still be a little too exaggerated tho. Interesting exercise.
Thanks again for the feedback Sorce! I've noticed in most of my trees, the ones I like anyway, there are always a lot of parallel and perpendicular lines, like a diagonal grid can be superimposed. No single tree is a perfect example, but I think you can see that here and it's very likely I will end up developing the branches to accentuate it. This helps lead to an overall triangular shape as well as multiple sub-triangles, plus lots of sympathetic lines. I don't think about it when I'm styling a tree and it's certainly not unique to my stuff, but when my mind can see lots and lots of interesting interactions like this buried within a tree like secret messages it gets very happy. Without looking back I'm pretty sure you can apply this to Alain's Malus he showed in a different thread.
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I do not like this last look.
When I first saw the tree...of course the trunk line was noticeable, but only because it was accentuated with perfect amount of foilage right where it needed...
Truthfully...I don't like any of the other virts...
I would like to see more ramification and taper start closer to the trunk...and stay in a little closer...."finer branching".
Everything exactly where it is...ish...
But with almost every branch taken back to the first fork. And rebuilt really tight.
IMO...you have a great start to start taking them all back to create a really dynamic tree.
Red cuts.
Keep in thick green..
Thin green very rough eventual placement.
They say D trees don't make literati.
This, to me, is a Deciduous Literati.
Sorce
When I first saw the tree...of course the trunk line was noticeable, but only because it was accentuated with perfect amount of foilage right where it needed...
Truthfully...I don't like any of the other virts...
I would like to see more ramification and taper start closer to the trunk...and stay in a little closer...."finer branching".
Everything exactly where it is...ish...
But with almost every branch taken back to the first fork. And rebuilt really tight.
IMO...you have a great start to start taking them all back to create a really dynamic tree.
Red cuts.
Keep in thick green..
Thin green very rough eventual placement.
They say D trees don't make literati.
This, to me, is a Deciduous Literati.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
In half the pot....
Dope.
Sorce
Dope.
Sorce
Velodog2
Chumono
Yes I'm with you. It's faking it branch-wise right now. I need time and better skills to be able to cut back and get shorter internodes and taper. Growing, cutting, and regrowing will give the branches character like the trunk.
I gotta be realistic about how tight I can make it tho. It's not got the finest twigging no matter what I do. I don't think the pads u show are doable.
Also I want to keep some maple tree character in it which to me means most branches with predominantly rising lines.
Lots more time needed and much more to do.
I love deciduous literati. But this won't be one IMO.
I gotta be realistic about how tight I can make it tho. It's not got the finest twigging no matter what I do. I don't think the pads u show are doable.
Also I want to keep some maple tree character in it which to me means most branches with predominantly rising lines.
Lots more time needed and much more to do.
I love deciduous literati. But this won't be one IMO.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
I like the tree like it is now. Keep cutting back to finer growth as sorce says, but go for an upright growing pattern (as it is now), it matches the maple and the relative young image that is in this tree. Doing the cutback all at once wil give you fast growing shoots. You should avoid that. When you're happy with your trunk (and i think it will be ok when you let time do its work over the years), you can start pinching and more important letting air and light in your tree in spring and summer. This way you will have backbudding and development of fine branching. The next year you can cut back a bit furthers etc...
Ohioisonfire
Sapling
Shun
Mame
Just so you know I am going after a Japanese maple because of your tree and MACH5's maples too..! Congratulations!
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I was about to recommend the same on the tilt left! Not a big movement, just enough to make a little more dynamic..
Honestly, the movement is interesting, looks like he has a plan to get it more "twiggy"... nice little tree...
The biggest thing I would say is there is almost no taper! Perhaps layering the roots just above where they are now would fix that (though, this is kind of a pro move! If you aren't comfortable with the process... don't do it! You can have layers not take sometimes and if that happened, the whole tree would be lost!)
Most of all those, just a few years of growth should help it mature... like strong growth! Trunk thickening.. let some branches run kind of growth... that could add some size to that trunk and with a board under it should produce a bit of flair at the bottom, then down the road you can chose to layer or thread graft a few roots in there if need be...
that would be the only thing I might consider if this were my tree, but it is a cute little plant right now!
Velodog2
Chumono
It was great to open this up on New Year's Day and see the nice comments. Thank you everyone!
I think this tree has achieved a tenuous balance right now like a drunk man trying to balance on a fence rail on one leg. So far he's doing it but could fall at any moment. That may be some of the appeal. That's what I was trying for anyways.
Eric, I've air layered entire bases before (on the tree in my avatar for example) but I've decided not to do it on this. As you say layering can be hit or miss and I may not end up any better off, plus it takes a long time to mature and leaves an artificial looking ridge just above the root line. These roots will be ok in time and I'll see what can be done when I repot to increase the spread. I actually think the taper is quite good, except at the very apex which needs to be remade, it's just very gradual due to the width of the base. I think that is also part of its charm right now however as the picture of a relatively young tree. It will thicken with time as you say, and then it will be a different tree.
Happy that I've helped to inspire more maples like this and I look forward to seeing them! Happy New Year everyone!
I think this tree has achieved a tenuous balance right now like a drunk man trying to balance on a fence rail on one leg. So far he's doing it but could fall at any moment. That may be some of the appeal. That's what I was trying for anyways.
Eric, I've air layered entire bases before (on the tree in my avatar for example) but I've decided not to do it on this. As you say layering can be hit or miss and I may not end up any better off, plus it takes a long time to mature and leaves an artificial looking ridge just above the root line. These roots will be ok in time and I'll see what can be done when I repot to increase the spread. I actually think the taper is quite good, except at the very apex which needs to be remade, it's just very gradual due to the width of the base. I think that is also part of its charm right now however as the picture of a relatively young tree. It will thicken with time as you say, and then it will be a different tree.
Happy that I've helped to inspire more maples like this and I look forward to seeing them! Happy New Year everyone!
Velodog2
Chumono
Hey all!
Here is this tree after leaf fall and a little wiring to adjust some angles, but very little pruning.
It wasn’t a great year with buds breaking in February and a hasty repot. I tried to get it outside in the sun during the day as much as possible back then, and also plucked out almost all the second leaf shoots, but it still developed internodes longer than I wanted. It did not produce a second flush of leaves either. One set per bud was all I got where I had plucked. Still, except for a few leaves near the top lost to fungus late in the wet summer, it was healthy.
It did bud back where I had pruned last fall for the most part. The stumpy branch near the top lived without leaves all summer and now I can see a nascent bud underneath that should break next year.
So I think it needs more aggressive pruning in the spring. Something like this virtual, more or less, which is not unlike Sorce’s, and MichaelS’ suggestion. This is how I built the trunk, by successive growing and pruning, and probably how I should build the branches. Maple people (which I am not) please let me know if this is the best plan! It will remove most of the large buds present now. Too much? Too little? Should I progress branch by branch yearly to avoid weakening, or conversely to avoid fast growing shoots per Dirk’s advice? I got lots of good suggestions last year and I need to decide.
Here is this tree after leaf fall and a little wiring to adjust some angles, but very little pruning.
It wasn’t a great year with buds breaking in February and a hasty repot. I tried to get it outside in the sun during the day as much as possible back then, and also plucked out almost all the second leaf shoots, but it still developed internodes longer than I wanted. It did not produce a second flush of leaves either. One set per bud was all I got where I had plucked. Still, except for a few leaves near the top lost to fungus late in the wet summer, it was healthy.
It did bud back where I had pruned last fall for the most part. The stumpy branch near the top lived without leaves all summer and now I can see a nascent bud underneath that should break next year.
So I think it needs more aggressive pruning in the spring. Something like this virtual, more or less, which is not unlike Sorce’s, and MichaelS’ suggestion. This is how I built the trunk, by successive growing and pruning, and probably how I should build the branches. Maple people (which I am not) please let me know if this is the best plan! It will remove most of the large buds present now. Too much? Too little? Should I progress branch by branch yearly to avoid weakening, or conversely to avoid fast growing shoots per Dirk’s advice? I got lots of good suggestions last year and I need to decide.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Repotting almost always induces fast growing shoots. It takes a while before the tree settles down again. The more refined the tree is, the more important the pruning and cutback in spring / summer will be. Normally fall thinning will be minimal. The more you thin in fall, the stronger the growth you might expect. On the photo there are a lot of empty spaces that are "locked" by branches. For example the empty space under the lowest branch left could flow more if the lowest branch is re-positioned. Photo always give an other image of the tree, so keep that in mind. Still like the tree.
Jeremy
Shohin
I can't offer training advice on JM but you're on the right path with this one. Exceptional little tree, I've been staring at it for ages
Velodog2
Chumono
I did all my pruning in fall last year, in addition to repotting in the spring. I am waiting until spring for pruning this time and there will not be a repotting. I tentatively plan to only prune some of what I have shown. Perhaps this will never be a great tree because of my unwillingness to commit, but I want it to live so I can keep trying. Perhaps I will do it and it will work well, and perhaps I will change my mind and prune more extensively.
I assume by locked you mean blocked when referring to the negative spaces. Are you referring to the unpruned photo? I agree and want to open it up. I’m not sure what you are suggesting doing exactly with the lowest branch however. In the pruned photo if I remove the innermost descending secondary branch on it in order to open up the space beneath, it unbalances the tree. For me the most important shape and space is on the right of the trunk.
I really like the virtually pruned pic in general even if perhaps the details are not all correct. It’s the first inkling I’ve had of how the branches could begin to work well with the trunk.
Thank you Jeremy! I think I said something similar once to someone I wanted to date about looking at their photo and turned out it was creepy, so things didn’t work out. It’s ok for a tree thoI can't offer training advice on JM but you're on the right path with this one. Exceptional little tree, I've been staring at it for ages
Velodog2
Chumono
Well this was a sort of transitional year here I think. I experimented with “hard” pruning, that is back beyond visible buds, just as buds were swelling. It worked well in that every place I did it eventually popped new, short internode branches as desired. But the flip side was that where it was not done the growth was course and long. It looked awful all summer with vastly different sized leaves, and doesn’t look good now with strong and weak shoots.
So now, although I’m not excited about the current shape of the branches, I have set myself up with many buds at multiple levels of internode and don’t really need more. So I plan to repot before bud break and allow the strong end buds to break and extend, hopefully keeping the smaller more interior buds a bit weaker. Then the strong growth will be pruned off. Hopefully I’m building the branch structure bit by bit in this manner eventually giving each branch the same character as the trunk.
One side effect, at least on this tree, of the pruning I did in the spring is that new buds emerged at sometimes awkward angles. Fortunately that largely fits the character of the tree. Still learning.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
You can fix this, in essence, with a little Al wire after the leaves on the node have hardened - wire should come off 4 to 6 weeks later
Velodog2
Chumono
Just completed spring pruning on this. Things seem to be moving in more or less the right direction with the branch development. It’s still about 8” tall.
The tree is very vigorous still, and even more so since putting it in akadama/pumice and switching to organic fertilizer pellets. I’m continuing to experiment with pruning, and the branches continue to be edited and developed depending on my success with controlling their growth. I’m sure they could be better, and given enough time they hopefully will. Regardless looking back over past pics and posts I’ve achieved more than I thought I could. The tree gives me a lot of enjoyment.
The tree is very vigorous still, and even more so since putting it in akadama/pumice and switching to organic fertilizer pellets. I’m continuing to experiment with pruning, and the branches continue to be edited and developed depending on my success with controlling their growth. I’m sure they could be better, and given enough time they hopefully will. Regardless looking back over past pics and posts I’ve achieved more than I thought I could. The tree gives me a lot of enjoyment.
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It's nice just to see it aged into where it was!
I like this tree.
Sorce
I like this tree.
Sorce
Velodog2
Chumono
Thanks as always Sorce.
Looking back I know you were an advocate of hard pruning the branches back and remaking them nearly from scratch. Despite some long internodes and resulting straight sections I can’t quite do that. They are developing character matching the trunk reasonably well I think. And they have some repeating lines that I always like in my trees.
There are a couple back buds popping from the first two branches that will eventually help ramification. And look at the size of the internodes I’ve managed to get on the branches on the top! I am learning a lot about manipulating this tree, but I am still being relatively cautious in how I cut back. It will get there I think.
Looking back I know you were an advocate of hard pruning the branches back and remaking them nearly from scratch. Despite some long internodes and resulting straight sections I can’t quite do that. They are developing character matching the trunk reasonably well I think. And they have some repeating lines that I always like in my trees.
There are a couple back buds popping from the first two branches that will eventually help ramification. And look at the size of the internodes I’ve managed to get on the branches on the top! I am learning a lot about manipulating this tree, but I am still being relatively cautious in how I cut back. It will get there I think.
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