Shore Pine- Native species extraordinaire! Share your knowledge and progress with this species.

[Orion_metalhead]

Last year, the candles did not look this healthy.





I'm hoping to cut back after extension a little bit. There are a few branches I can prune back further to new buds as well.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Anyone else have flowers on their pines right now?? At least, I assume these are flowers.. tree os loaded with them which seems like a good sign of increasing health to me.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

My observations pinus contorta murrayana:
A. I have noticed branches take 2 seasons in wire to lignify.
B. Deer have eaten mine a few times.
C. Barks up nicely
D. Roots need cutting when tree is young.
E. Spring and Fall repotting is fine, (only one major activity a year is my practice).


How have folks been successful with backbudding?

My second backbudding attempt this season will be:
Plucked all needles last fall from the tops and bottoms of branches with the hope of getting back budding this summer. My thought was an early season candle cut, similar to how scots pines are sometimes done. I have been pumping fertilizer to promote some good budding too.

Next year, if things go well, I can do a needle reduction pruning.

Any thoughts?

 

[MaciekA]

How have folks been successful with backbudding?

My experience has been that they backbud very well (more than average among pines I've grown) once the roots are domesticated into pumice or some other very stable, oxygen-heavy medium.

In PNW zone 8, it seems to take about 18 months for them to really resume vigor and get the motor running again after collection or a Big Move, assuming the soil mass isn't moved/jostled around during recovery, watering is initially restrained, air flow is good, and exposure is full sun. They do not seem to like shade during recovery: Pests will move on them quickly, and I think the cuticle is too thick for a shady recovery to make sense. Some shore pine genetics, particularly the strains with lighter-colored, softer/fluffier needles (contrast against broadsword-ish needles of murrayana / latifolia) may seem to be a counterpoint, but I put em in full sun too and they prefer that.

After recovery in pumice and sun you can work the water/oxygen/osmocote pump more rapidly and you get budding that is fairly profuse. Any lodgepoles and shore pines that I've left in either large soil masses or that have remained in organic-heavy or oxygen-deprived native soil (say, from the collection site) will otherwise lag and maintain pretty sparse and tip-dominant growth until "The Big Move" into pumice occurs. I use a heat mat when fine roots are lacking.

In my mind, contorta is the official "drought pine of the Cascades" and should be mentally-associated with what summer is like in Bend, or just west of Dufur, or anywhere on the eastern slopes where you can catch sight of the high desert (warm, dry, but with occasional snowmelt moving by). In contrast, consider what autumn, winter or early spring are like in the Cascades (cool, wet). All of that to say that I don't think these trees are gulping down a ton of water when it's below 50F. They love oxygen in the roots and this seems to be true of shore as well, in spite of its coastal predisposition. I think you can learn more about what makes them tick by starting on the high-oxygen/water-restricted side of things and then easing your way into increased water and fertilizer from there, when it's very warm out, as opposed to starting your way from a nursery mix or other organic soil setup.

For anyone actually in the Pacific Northwest or within driving range of wild contorta seedlings who is looking to become a lodgepole fanatic, I think you owe it to yourself to dig up a few 1 or 2 foot tall "low value seedlings" with your NF roadside collection permit and observe what happens when you put these into pond baskets with 100% coarse pumice and bend the crap out of them with wire. Younger road-side contorta seem to love back-budding on wounded wood and quickly recover into elegant healthy little junior yamadori, all the better if you know where their snow burial is annually-reliable.

One thing I haven't fully wrapped my head around but am slowly gathering evidence for is the idea that you can judge the "relative" strength of a lodgepole/shore pine compared to others in your collection by the degree of wooly pest spread at budding sites in the spring (late March till late May ish). My strongest lodgepoles will have either zero or next to zero infestation, while weaker ones will need a water blast to keep fuzzies from getting established, and the stronger they get post-collection, the harder time the woolies have in even getting set up. Two years after collection, if all goes well, the wooly pest indicator seems only helpful in identifying the weakest shoots, but strong branches and apical zones become impervious.

EDIT: ps: I think these should really be much more popular for milder-climate (7 and warmer) growers in the US for one other big reason: How early in the year they begin to become active. Root activity, bud swell, and leaf out seem to happen weeks before other pines even show a hint of activity. More bang for buck in terms of growing season.

 

[ghues]

How about reviewing techniques and ones experience in reducing needle length. Tying to get the correct length in balance with the entire tree. Lots of variables, health, vigor, years from collection (I only have experience with Yamadori), years in pot, fertilizer, watering, pinching of candles etc etc.
My experience has come from listening to others more experienced in this species (Contorta Contorta) and applying proven techniques. Such things as getting them very healthy before performing major work, removing native soil over a period of time, spreading branches to allow more light, pinching candles with developing trees (which can produce back budding) fertilizing during development but only after bud set for ones in development.
One issue that we have up here in the coastal PNW is the amount of natural watering we get from Mother Nature which can play havoc with needle length. The average annual amount of rain I get is 60”/150cm). My Contorta flushed on time this spring due to some decent (for us) warm days in April but more recently we’ve had some significant rainfall events....great don’t have to artificially water....but from past experience with very elongated needle length due to this extra natural watering, I have tried to dry them out to reduce growth and needle length. I don’t have many covered areas but I do have one bench that I use and cover soils during these rainfall events to control how much water they receive. I DO NOT recommend this for anyone that can’t monitor their trees daily especially when it warms up and stays warm for periods of time.
Here are some examples of the buds being set early, differences in needle length and trees. The middle tree has the shortest length and has been in its pot the longest....all trees collected 2015, one with blue tarp 2016.
Cheers
G.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I've notice a few candles have little orange worms which have eaten into them. I've been removing the candles to the point where the worm has chewed down to. Anyone know what these are? I will try to get a picture of one tomorrow morning. Any recommendation on a systemic or insecticide that would help?

 

[River's Edge]

My approach is different. I believe the modern techniques for inducing back budding and reducing needle length are the same for all pines and work well with Shore Pine. This is consistent with my experience and training

The key is to create a healthy vigorous tree before applying the techniques. If one is experiencing issues with water retention from natural rain or otherwise it is best to adjust the substrate to suit your conditions. Excess water does not create long needles but it does create health issues that can be avoided. Here in the PNW it is avoidable with free draining substrates that do not retain a lot of moisture in the pot.

Back budding is induced through cutting the branch back beyond the base of the candle into the existing last years needles or further back to an existing side shoot, branch or candle that is strong enough to keep the branch alive. This cut back in a healthy tree causes a strong response of new back buds closer to the interior. The stronger the branch and the further the cut back, the greater the response.

Pinching Candles, or shortening candles by cutting the new candle primarily produces buds at the point where the candle is pinched or cut and a short distance from that point. It is used in refinement to create bifurcation or new buds but still maintain the existing shape. This approach is for refinement purposes not development.

Needle reduction in size comes naturally when the number of candles and shoots are increased through successive years of back budding caused by cut back techniques coupled with wiring the branches open and exposing the interior to the sun.

As I explain to my students, the needles will naturally grow longer when the tree is first improved in vigour and health, but as the tree produces more and more shoots, the needles naturally reduce in size. So this is not a cause for concern when a collected tree begins to produce longer needles. The energy produced by the tree is divided amongst hundreds more shoots. Further in refinement the balancing of needle pairs can help to distribute energy more evenly if fewer needles are left on strong shoots and more pairs of needles are left on weaker shoots.

There are also natural factors at work with younger trees responding better than older trees, younger branches back budding more readily than older branches etc.
However the key concept is retain a vigorous tree in order to get a strong response during development, once you have the interior growth and an excess of shoots than you can naturally reduce the needle length and begin the refinement stage.

To illustrate my comments I have included four pictures.
1. A shore pine in June 2020 showing the number of shoots and density of foliage!
2. Same shore pine one year later after applying the above concepts. Full continuous water, fertilizer, branches wired out and cut back. No candle pinching or reduction. Except through cut back beyond candles into older growth or up to existing shoots or side branches. This compacts design as well as inducing back budding.
3. Photo to show the density of shoots and needles created by the above in comparison to what is seen in previous years pictures!
4. Needle length comparison. longer pair is from last years growth, shorter pair from this years growth. The difference will be best judged at the end of this season but my experience tells me the overall needle length will reduce by half just on the basis of the increase in number of shoots caused from last years back budding.

I fully understand that the tradition way is to weaken the plant with less water, less fertilizer or smaller pot. Or keep it root bound for longer periods of time.
What all of those steps do is create a weaker tree which can result in poorer growth, but will not produce a better response to Bonsai techniques applied to induce back budding. The best approach I believe is grow out and cut back, keep the tree vigorous until refinement beckons and then maintain strong health even in refinement. Use pruning and decandling, needle pair reduction to maintain shape and needle length. And this is a good time to apply fertilizer for health rather than growth by adjusting the type of fertilizer, the amounts and timing of its application.

I've notice a few candles have little orange worms which have eaten into them. I've been removing the candles to the point where the worm has chewed down to. Anyone know what these are? I will try to get a picture of one tomorrow morning. Any recommendation on a systemic or insecticide that would help?

Likely larvae hatching within the candle and eating their way out. Not sure which insect it would be in your specific location though! best to ask local sources.

 

[River's Edge]

We refer to them as shoot tip moth in this neck of the woods! Not usually a serious problem, can affect a few candles on a tree. The moths lay the eggs in the candle and when the larvae develop it kills the shoot tip, turning it brown. Scientific name Rhyacionia buoliana , common name pine shoot tip moth, orange brown larvae . They are considered invasive in North America, you may have your very own special version in New Jersey though!
Preventative treatment would be an insecticidal during egg laying season for your location. Malathion is a possible, it works for our neck of the woods. The Bayer systemic in the blue container pictured below is effective. Active ingredient Imidacloprid

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Awesome info. The bayer rose and shrub active ingredient is imidiclorpid also, so i'll give that a whorl. Ill have to check when egg laying season is... i guess it cant hurt to use it now while the larvae are eating the candles. I had maybe five or six candles effected...

 

[andrewiles]

After reading this thread I want to add lodgepole pine to my collecting list.

Frank at al., do you have guidance on the collection process for lodgepole pines here in the PNW? I recall folks recommending pure pumice, but I'm curious how much original soil is needed. My limited experience with collecting larches this year has been that it's often hard to get much soil at all. Windswept ridge-line trees tend to grow in rocks and scree, and digging them up is often close to bare rooting. For larches this is ok but I have no experience with our local pines.

 

[River's Edge]

After reading this thread I want to add lodgepole pine to my collecting list.

Frank at al., do you have guidance on the collection process for lodgepole pines here in the PNW? I recall folks recommending pure pumice, but I'm curious how much original soil is needed. My limited experience with collecting larches this year has been that it's often hard to get much soil at all. Windswept ridge-line trees tend to grow in rocks and scree, and digging them up is often close to bare rooting. For larches this is ok but I have no experience with our local pines.

It depends on the local soil conditions and the site. The process varies from the particulars and the species. General guidelines are do not bare root. Preserve as many feeder roots as possible. Prevent root damage by keeping as much of the root ball and roots compact and tightly wrapped for transport. Do not allow roots or foliage to dry out during the collection, transport and repot process. For pines the change out of soil can wait until the tree has recovered from collection, this can take up till two or three years in some cases.
The amount of native soil to retain varies from the type of site and the collectors preferred process. When starting out retain as much native soil as possible, cut as few roots as possible and wrap the root ball very tight for transport. After many variations I tend to use garbage bags and electrical tape to secure the root ball. Before enclosing I ensure the roots and soil are damp ( spray bottles) and during transport I mist the foliage to prevent drying out. Transport should be protected from wind.
Placing of the root ball in recovery container is where the level of experience and preference of the collector comes in. It is also impacted by the level of aftercare and resources available. So this is where the directions can be almost contradictory!
I suggest that beginners take the safest route which is to carefully remove, larger rocks, dead roots and larger pieces of organic material. When removing these materials carefully retain all the native soil you can without damaging the feeder roots.
Retain all the roots you can by folding them in and under where possible. Ensure that some roots are free of soil around the perimeter to encourage extension into the new substrate. Select or construct a container to fit the rootball. Allow approximately 1 to1 1/ 2 inches around the perimeter and below the root ball. Make sure the container has plenty of drainage holes. Place seived medium size 1/8" to 3/16" pumice ( fines removed) on the bottom and sides carefully to not damage the roots. Secure the tree in the container firmly. ( important step)
Aftercare, keep the tree in partial shade, water regularly and mist the foliage for the first couple of months. Minimum recovery time is one year, two is better, can take longer. Wait until the tree shows strong growth before beginning change out of native soil and placement in maintenance pot.
Others will have developed their own systems and with training and experience can shorten some aspects or begin training while the tree is in the adaptation process.
My recommendation is to complete collection, adaptation and soil change out to create the beginning point of a vigorous healthy tree before beginning to develop or train as a bonsai. The reasoning is as follows. The tree will respond better to Bonsai techniques and develop faster, refine faster if it is vigorous and has a developed Bonsai root system. Collected trees come with a wide variety of root systems that often need longer periods of time to adapt for life in a pot. Patience and skill are required to successfully adapt many of those root systems. One Shore Pine I am currently working on took six years to develop a feeder root style system from collection. And a further two years to create enough additional density of foliage and branching to begin styling. A second one adapted within one year showing healthy growth and styling began in the third year after collection.

 

[MaciekA]

After reading this thread I want to add lodgepole pine to my collecting list.

Frank at al., do you have guidance on the collection process for lodgepole pines here in the PNW? I recall folks recommending pure pumice, but I'm curious how much original soil is needed. My limited experience with collecting larches this year has been that it's often hard to get much soil at all. Windswept ridge-line trees tend to grow in rocks and scree, and digging them up is often close to bare rooting. For larches this is ok but I have no experience with our local pines.

You will have roughly the same experience with lodgepoles and/or shore pines collected in the coastals or in the cascades. In my experience they continue to survive reasonably well in their native soil (volcanic sand, basically) and if your aftercare is good, then survival rates are very high even if the tree pushes only minimal needle mass during the first warm season after recovery.

Pure pumice has worked well for me, and although keeping the native soil is useful for minimizing root disturbance during collection, I've found it of minimal value afterwards, and I wouldn't preserve a ton of it if my goal was to (say) preserve fungus or microbiome. In my experience, that stuff will find its way into pumice pretty fast if even the smallest bits of native soil remain. I sometimes go back to collected lodgepoles and carefully/surgically excavate regions of native soil that have no root activity, then infill them with pumice -- sometimes this has dramatic results if the existing root system is able to integrate into pumice (and you've got the tree in sun).

If you collect in the autumn, a heating mat dramatically improves chances of survival and can keep you growing a root system over the winter. I've collected most of my lodgepoles in late October / early November, as snowpack or closed roads sometimes get in the way of getting to good collecting spots. I strongly recommend getting a roadside collecting permit and collecting young roadside lodgepoles as "practice", of which there are zillions and which leap back into vigor very fast, are bent with wire easily, and often come with weird trunk contortions already built in. Be on the lookout for mistletoe infections!

 

[andrewiles]

Thanks, both of you. The advice is much appreciated.

 

[ghues]

My approach is different. I believe the modern techniques for inducing back budding and reducing needle length are the same for all pines and work well with Shore Pine. This is consistent with my experience and training

The key is to create a healthy vigorous tree before applying the techniques. If one is experiencing issues with water retention from natural rain or otherwise it is best to adjust the substrate to suit your conditions. Excess water does not create long needles but it does create health issues that can be avoided. Here in the PNW it is avoidable with free draining substrates that do not retain a lot of moisture in the pot.

Back budding is induced through cutting the branch back beyond the base of the candle into the existing last years needles or further back to an existing side shoot, branch or candle that is strong enough to keep the branch alive. This cut back in a healthy tree causes a strong response of new back buds closer to the interior. The stronger the branch and the further the cut back, the greater the response.

Pinching Candles, or shortening candles by cutting the new candle primarily produces buds at the point where the candle is pinched or cut and a short distance from that point. It is used in refinement to create bifurcation or new buds but still maintain the existing shape. This approach is for refinement purposes not development.

Needle reduction in size comes naturally when the number of candles and shoots are increased through successive years of back budding caused by cut back techniques coupled with wiring the branches open and exposing the interior to the sun.

As I explain to my students, the needles will naturally grow longer when the tree is first improved in vigour and health, but as the tree produces more and more shoots, the needles naturally reduce in size. So this is not a cause for concern when a collected tree begins to produce longer needles. The energy produced by the tree is divided amongst hundreds more shoots. Further in refinement the balancing of needle pairs can help to distribute energy more evenly if fewer needles are left on strong shoots and more pairs of needles are left on weaker shoots.

There are also natural factors at work with younger trees responding better than older trees, younger branches back budding more readily than older branches etc.
However the key concept is retain a vigorous tree in order to get a strong response during development, once you have the interior growth and an excess of shoots than you can naturally reduce the needle length and begin the refinement stage.

To illustrate my comments I have included four pictures.
1. A shore pine in June 2020 showing the number of shoots and density of foliage!
2. Same shore pine one year later after applying the above concepts. Full continuous water, fertilizer, branches wired out and cut back. No candle pinching or reduction. Except through cut back beyond candles into older growth or up to existing shoots or side branches. This compacts design as well as inducing back budding.
3. Photo to show the density of shoots and needles created by the above in comparison to what is seen in previous years pictures!
4. Needle length comparison. longer pair is from last years growth, shorter pair from this years growth. The difference will be best judged at the end of this season but my experience tells me the overall needle length will reduce by half just on the basis of the increase in number of shoots caused from last years back budding.

I fully understand that the tradition way is to weaken the plant with less water, less fertilizer or smaller pot. Or keep it root bound for longer periods of time.
What all of those steps do is create a weaker tree which can result in poorer growth, but will not produce a better response to Bonsai techniques applied to induce back budding. The best approach I believe is grow out and cut back, keep the tree vigorous until refinement beckons and then maintain strong health even in refinement. Use pruning and decandling, needle pair reduction to maintain shape and needle length. And this is a good time to apply fertilizer for health rather than growth by adjusting the type of fertilizer, the amounts and timing of its application.

Likely larvae hatching within the candle and eating their way out. Not sure which insect it would be in your specific location though! best to ask local sources.

Hi Frank, my objective is NOT to weaken the tree with less water and fertilizer but to restrict and monitor the amount of water it gets, trying to give them water when they need it.
I use the techniques you describe for collection, potting up, trees in development etc. I only use this water monitoring and application method for my more refined Shore Pines. At the end of the growing season they have good vigour, colour and tight smaller buds for next year.
You know that even though we aren’t that far apart we get more rain than your location so this increase watering of rain can have an effect, and this June has seen lots...even yesterday we had two thunderstorm rain events (over 1/2” in just a few hours), so I won’t have to water for a day of two even though my SP are in pure pumice. Cheers G

 

[ghues]

You will have roughly the same experience with lodgepoles and/or shore pines collected in the coastals or in the cascades. In my experience they continue to survive reasonably well in their native soil (volcanic sand, basically) and if your aftercare is good, then survival rates are very high even if the tree pushes only minimal needle mass during the first warm season after recovery.

Pure pumice has worked well for me, and although keeping the native soil is useful for minimizing root disturbance during collection, I've found it of minimal value afterwards, and I wouldn't preserve a ton of it if my goal was to (say) preserve fungus or microbiome. In my experience, that stuff will find its way into pumice pretty fast if even the smallest bits of native soil remain. I sometimes go back to collected lodgepoles and carefully/surgically excavate regions of native soil that have no root activity, then infill them with pumice -- sometimes this has dramatic results if the existing root system is able to integrate into pumice (and you've got the tree in sun).

If you collect in the autumn, a heating mat dramatically improves chances of survival and can keep you growing a root system over the winter. I've collected most of my lodgepoles in late October / early November, as snowpack or closed roads sometimes get in the way of getting to good collecting spots. I strongly recommend getting a roadside collecting permit and collecting young roadside lodgepoles as "practice", of which there are zillions and which leap back into vigor very fast, are bent with wire easily, and often come with weird trunk contortions already built in. Be on the lookout for mistletoe infections!

Seems like you have had success with your Contorta however from my experience with Shore Pines from sphagnum bogs things can be a little different. These usually don’t have as much root mass as those I’ve collected from more sandy/rocky soils so they take more care and patience lol.

 

[MaciekA]

Seems like you have had success with your Contorta however from my experience with Shore Pines from sphagnum bogs things can be a little different. These usually don’t have as much root mass as those I’ve collected from more sandy/rocky soils so they take more care and patience lol.

I can imagine! It's amazing how diverse this one species can be in its adaptation to regional niches.

On the other hand, I've been reading an OSU overview document on shore pine (here: https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9008.pdf ), and they claim some rather surprising things that may raise an eyebrow among yamadori collectors.

Check this out this quote (from page 3):

Because lodgepole pine occupies such a variety of sites, when planting shore pine trees it is important that the seed or seedling source matches the site where the pines are being planted. A study of shore pines on Vancouver Island found that seed should not be transferred more than 500 ft in elevation. It could be moved 1.5° north or south but only a short distance east and west. The researchers concluded that seed used at their research site should come only from sites within the narrow rain shadow of Vancouver Island (Ying and Liang 1994). Sorensen (1992) and Stoneman (1984) both concluded that Sierra lodgepole pine in Oregon could be moved over large geographical areas, but should be restricted to narrow elevation differences. If a lodgepole seedling from the Blue Mountains in eastern Oregon is moved and planted on the Oregon coast, its chances of survival are minimal. Even our native shore pines can be damaged and sometimes killed when large storms move large amounts of salt spray inland. An imported lodgepole seedling does not stand a chance in our coastal environment.

I haven't read the referred-to studies yet, but am curious what specific issues (biotic? abiotic?) led them to conclude that shore pine genetics (or even lodgepole genetics) are so hyper-constricted to narrow regional/elevational bands, when at the same time, the species overall is widely distributed and is simultaneously famous for superb drought tolerance and soggy bog tolerance. I wonder if what they were really comparing was soil conditions. In some ways, it feels like bonsai collectors "know" (anecdotally) that we can grow shore pines "off site" (as the document refers to it) fairly easily, as long as the root system is taken care of. They don't seem to mind arctic blasts. They look at a brutally hot heat wave and ask for more sun.

 

[River's Edge]

Seems like you have had success with your Contorta however from my experience with Shore Pines from sphagnum bogs things can be a little different. These usually don’t have as much root mass as those I’ve collected from more sandy/rocky soils so they take more care and patience lol.

Absolutely, the root structure is significantly different depending on the site. I would suspect significant ph differences occur in the soil composition within narrow bands as well. Shore pine at higher elevations can be in peat bogs or decomposed granite rock pockets.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Frank, my objective is NOT to weaken the tree with less water and fertilizer but to restrict and monitor the amount of water it gets, trying to give them water when they need it.
I use the techniques you describe for collection, potting up, trees in development etc. I only use this water monitoring and application method for my more refined Shore Pines. At the end of the growing season they have good vigour, colour and tight smaller buds for next year.
You know that even though we aren’t that far apart we get more rain than your location so this increase watering of rain can have an effect, and this June has seen lots...even yesterday we had two thunderstorm rain events (over 1/2” in just a few hours), so I won’t have to water for a day of two even though my SP are in pure pumice. Cheers G

We had the same weather in the past two days, Two or three short bursts of heavy deluge and some intermittent showers. However my site has 17% less overall moisture than the average for this central area on Vancouver Island. The majority of the rain systems come in from the west. My site is protected by MT. Moriarty, Mt. Arrowsmith and Mt. Cokley. They divide the weather patterns to the north and south with less rain falling in the eastern shadow of their peaks.
It depends on the origin and direction of the weather systems. Campbell River, Port Hardy definitely receive higher amounts of moisture on average.

 

[BrianBay9]

Be on the lookout for mistletoe infections!

This was the single most serious issue when I was collecting lodgepole.

 

[River's Edge]

This was the single most serious issue when I was collecting lodgepole.

Each area may vary, Pine shoot moth, needle cast, borers, fungal infections that are present in the native forests. It is important to recognize what is present and avoid or have a plan to deal with natural pests and disease. It does take some time and training to spot the signs and understand the risks involved in collection.