Sapling Division: Cjr Bald Cypress Forest

[Joe Dupre']

Re: Henderson Swamp. From my research and talking to a biologist, I have an educated guess as to flairing and buttressing. Biologists know that full-time water up on the trunk of a cypress causes it to gradually lose vigor. Now, they don't know if that's 6", 1 foot or 3 feet up the trunk or how long any of these scenarios have to be in place. All I know is that in over 60 years of being in the midst of cypress swamps and lakes, trees in open water on local lakes tend to slowly die. In that slow process, it SEEMS the trees grow bigger bases as a reaction to open water waves and winds. Now, in those same swamps and lakes, I have personlly witnessed the water rising ( land also sinking) over 30 inches. 30 inches of rise would not be much to someone 50 feet above sea level. The small towns in my area ........the high ground..... are 3-5 feet above sea level. 30 inhes is a MAJOR factor there.

I have a little experient going on these last couple of years. The swamp where I collect has dozens if not hundreds of cypress in the 3/4" to 6" diameter. I've gone around to the smaller trees and bent them back and forth vigorously to hopefully stimulate flairing. We'll see this spring if it worked.

 

[Cajunrider]

Re: Henderson Swamp. From my research and talking to a biologist, I have an educated guess as to flairing and buttressing. Biologists know that full-time water up on the trunk of a cypress causes it to gradually lose vigor. Now, they don't know if that's 6", 1 foot or 3 feet up the trunk or how long any of these scenarios have to be in place. All I know is that in over 60 years of being in the midst of cypress swamps and lakes, trees in open water on local lakes tend to slowly die. In that slow process, it SEEMS the trees grow bigger bases as a reaction to open water waves and winds. Now, in those same swamps and lakes, I have personlly witnessed the water rising ( land also sinking) over 30 inches. 30 inches of rise would not be much to someone 50 feet above sea level. The small towns in my area ........the high ground..... are 3-5 feet above sea level. 30 inhes is a MAJOR factor there.

I have a little experient going on these last couple of years. The swamp where I collect has dozens if not hundreds of cypress in the 3/4" to 6" diameter. I've gone around to the smaller trees and bent them back and forth vigorously to hopefully stimulate flairing. We'll see this spring if it worked.

I am trying similar thing with the small trees in my pots. Planted without tie down in shallow pots with lloose soil that’s flooded from spring to fall, these trees move a whole lot early in the year. By the fall the roots are spread out and the trees are solid in the pots. Year two and you can lift the whole tree up by the trunk. My trees have just a little more flare than the ones I see in the nursery. The difference is repeatable but not much over one year.

 

[Cajunrider]

I am trying similar thing with the small trees in my pots. Planted without tie down in shallow pots with lloose soil that’s flooded from spring to fall, these trees move a whole lot early in the year. By the fall the roots are spread out and the trees are solid in the pots. Year two and you can lift the whole tree up by the trunk. My trees have just a little more flare than the ones I see in the nursery. The difference is repeatable but not much over one year.

So I measured my best 3 one year old BC seedlings. Avg diameter is 1.85” and height = 60”.
Then I went to two local nurseries and measure the BC trees and found the avg diameter is 1.5” and the height = 72”.
Growing in tub filled with water definitely gives me bigger trunks

 

[Cajunrider]

They all have grown a little bit. I plan to incorporate 2 more groupings to the forest around June or so.

 

[Cajunrider]

So I gathered up my sapling BCs and put a different forest together. I put it in another thread by mistake. Then today I have two more saplings that I previously planned to develop as single trees as potential for the forest. I think late summer this forest will finally take shape.

 

[Cajunrider]

Replanted the forest today and finished with a 9 tree forest. Still thinking about how to incorporate swamp feature. Most likely will be in the front so the forest will be a view from a pirogue. Decided to use the fast growing soil for now.

Plan.


Stock



Ground layer gave a beautiful root ball


Old forest roots have weaved together.




Front back and side views

 

[Joe Dupre']

Looking good!

Swamp feature: maybe just dig out a 2" deep shallow "ditch" winding across the front and keep the water level up to where it looks like a shoreline???

 

[Cajunrider]

Looking good!

Swamp feature: maybe just dig out a 2" deep shallow "ditch" winding across the front and keep the water level up to where it looks like a shoreline???

That’s my thought.

 

[Cajunrider]

3 weeks later, the small trees are doing well. The big one is struggling due to severe root pruning.

 

[Maiden69]

Here is my take... I am still debating about creating a forest with my BC's, but if I do, I will continue to develop the trees separate and later join them in the composition. This way you can control the roots better and feed them accordingly. It will be so much easier, and I think that way you can slow down their apical dominance and work on ramification. Inside a tub with plenty of water and organics they will just grow like crazy. I have mine in all inorganic soil, and all the organics they get is what I feed them, so I can dictate how fast and how much they grow.

 

[Cajunrider]

Here is my take... I am still debating about creating a forest with my BC's, but if I do, I will continue to develop the trees separate and later join them in the composition. This way you can control the roots better and feed them accordingly. It will be so much easier, and I think that way you can slow down their apical dominance and work on ramification. Inside a tub with plenty of water and organics they will just grow like crazy. I have mine in all inorganic soil, and all the organics they get is what I feed them, so I can dictate how fast and how much they grow.

For me in the beginning I put them in organic and a draining tub so they grow like crazy, forcing both the roots and the tops to learn to weave together and coexist. This will take about 2 years. Once that is done, I move the forest to a proper forest pot and bonsai soil to control the growth for ramification. At that time I will control the growth of the top via selective pruning and defoliation. I am pretty confident I can do that with BC. The more highly developed your individual trees are, the harder it will be when you put them together into a forest. I found that out already with this forest. To fit the large tree I have into this forest, I had to prune so much off the root that it is struggling. I am sure it will survive and thrive later but for now it is slow going. You can potentially have that issue with all your trees in the forest if you grow them separately into big trees. For me the trees growing together make the forest, otherwise it will just be a grouping of mature trees.

 

[Maiden69]

To fit the large tree I have into this forest, I had to prune so much off the root that it is struggling.

Right now the largest of my BC trunk is almost 3", not that big, but I have it inside a #3Rootpouch, which is inside a tub of water. I love the way that the Rootpouch is forcing the BC to develop a lot of feeder roots. This will be the first full growing season in them, so I will post results next year upon repot. I am moving this one to a #5 or bigger bag. The other ones are inside a #2, one was slipped potted last fall because it grew out of the terracotta pot it was in, the other 2 were moved this spring, the growth after the spring chop has been amazing. I'm try to update my thread today. I do find your large BC interesting, hope it recovers soon!

 

[Cajunrider]

Right now the largest of my BC trunk is almost 3", not that big, but I have it inside a #3Rootpouch, which is inside a tub of water. I love the way that the Rootpouch is forcing the BC to develop a lot of feeder roots. This will be the first full growing season in them, so I will post results next year upon repot. I am moving this one to a #5 or bigger bag. The other ones are inside a #2, one was slipped potted last fall because it grew out of the terracotta pot it was in, the other 2 were moved this spring, the growth after the spring chop has been amazing. I'm try to update my thread today. I do find your large BC interesting, hope it recovers soon!

The problem will come when you have a whole lot of trees with big root balls and nebari that each demands its own space and then you have to force a bunch of them into a much smaller space. The forest will feel contrived. Look at my last two forest build pictures and you will see the issue I faced. If you grow them into #5 bag, you are going to have to damage those roots a whole lot to get them to fit into the forest.

 

[Maiden69]

@Cajunrider the Rootpouch are folded to 1/3rd their height, and all the small trees are screwed into 6" octagonal tiles. the root ball "should" be around 1" height by around 6-8" wide after removed from the pouch and the excess root removed. Same concept Mellow Mullet does, but I am using tile instead of wood. Don't know how much difference that will do, but I am hoping for the best. I think that cutting a little extra roots at repot on the areas that the trees will be close to each other wouldn't hurt the trees at all. From what I have seen BC tend to send a few roots out, like serpents moving out from the trunk. And if I let those get too long and thick it will be a real PITA to deal with when trying to move them into a pot.

The big one, I am not worried about the root ball at all. Think about when you collect at tree, there are barely any feeder roots at all near the trunk, yet the trees survive like champs. I plan on feeding it well this fall before I repot in spring. It will go into the #5 with an 8" tile underneath. And the bag will be folded as well. I use the bigger bags because of their diameter. They will allow the roots to reach further before getting constricted allowing them to thicken slightly.

At the end, this is but an experiment. If it doesn't work come spring time when I repot the trees I will adjust and try something else.

 

[LittleDingus]

Right now the largest of my BC trunk is almost 3", not that big, but I have it inside a #3Rootpouch, which is inside a tub of water. I love the way that the Rootpouch is forcing the BC to develop a lot of feeder roots.

I don't understand these statements Inside a tub of water? There's no air pruning inside a tub of water?? I would expect the roots to circle because there is no air to dri the tips to "prune" them.

Maybe your trees haven't had time to form runners?? Or maybe what I think of as a "root pouch" is different than what you're using??

Also, IMO, it's not the root depth that is a problem when assembling a forest...it's the width. The sprawl is what limits where trees can go and how close the trunks can be planted. Giving up the ability to put trunks close together tends to push the composition to a more uniform...and less natural...spacing. My experience anyway...

 

[Maiden69]

I don't understand these statements Inside a tub of water? There's no air pruning inside a tub of water?? I would expect the roots to circle because there is no air to dri the tips to "prune" them.

Maybe your trees haven't had time to form runners?? Or maybe what I think of as a "root pouch" is different than what you're using??

Also, IMO, it's not the root depth that is a problem when assembling a forest...it's the width. The sprawl is what limits where trees can go and how close the trunks can be planted. Giving up the ability to put trunks close together tends to push the composition to a more uniform...and less natural...spacing. My experience anyway...

Rootpouch brand don't air prune, they prune by entrapment. There are always a few runners with this brand, they are usually located in the bottom seam area.

Root Pouch fabric does not air prune like other fabric pots, rather it prunes by entrapment.
Air pruning fabrics allow the root to squeeze through the fabric. Root Pouch traps the root tips creating dense fibrous root systems while containing the roots within the bag, making it the best choice for in- ground and pot-in-pot applications. When used as an in-ground grow bag another advantage Root Pouch offers over all other bags is the natural fibers in the fabric draw water towards the pot from surrounding soil lessening the need for drip systems.

 

[LittleDingus]

Rootpouch brand don't air prune, they prune by entrapment. There are always a few runners with this brand, they are usually located in the bottom seam area.

I grow almost exclusively in fabric that makes the "prune by antrapment" claims. They don't. If I keep the fabric dry there will be some air pruning. My bald cypress that I had in them in a couple of inches of water had long roots that circled just like plastic pots.

They are worse than plastic pots from the standpoint that roots will stick to the fabric much more than smooth plastic making it harder o get the tree out without cutting the bag off.

 

[Cajunrider]

I grow almost exclusively in fabric that makes the "prune by antrapment" claims. They don't. If I keep the fabric dry there will be some air pruning. My bald cypress that I had in them in a couple of inches of water had long roots that circled just like plastic pots.

They are worse than plastic pots from the standpoint that roots will stick to the fabric much more than smooth plastic making it harder o get the tree out without cutting the bag off.

Good to know.

 

[Maiden69]

They are worse than plastic pots from the standpoint that roots will stick to the fabric much more than smooth plastic making it harder o get the tree out without cutting the bag off.

You are missing the point on why to use the fabric. The root reaches the fabric, gets entrapped/air pruned (pick your poison), the tip dies and the root branches out from a few inches back from where the tip died. The tip will be imbedded in the fabric, all of the fabric manufacturers suggest you use something to run around the bag to release this tips from it before pulling the bag off. I simply cut the side of the bag vertically and then run a chopstick or long stainless spatula around the bag and the tree comes out clean.

I grow almost exclusively in fabric that makes the "prune by antrapment" claims. They don't.

So, if they don't, why are you having issues getting the bag off? If they didn't and just circle around you could just peel the bag off. I have used this bags for a few years before trying them on pre-bonsai material starting last year and they do what they say they do. They work even on azaleas, where the roots are super fine, I just repotted one this year and I had better roots near the trunk of the tree than the ones I have repotted from nursery pots.

But, I guess Dr. Carl E. Whitcomb don't know anything and wasted decades making experiments and testing different materials to come up with this fallacy that his fabrics don't prune by entrapment...

Simple explanation of the old system (which 90% of the bags out there still use, and the root trappers which the new Root Trappers from Root Maker and Rootpouch uses.

Here Dr Whitcomb explains his entire system.

Ultimately, use what you want, which is why I am using just this two specific brand bags. They are not cheap, when compared with the regular bags in the market, but to me, in my little experience, they outperform everything in the market.

Side note, The bags Telperion used in all their trees were root entrapment bags. But I guess they didn't know they didn't work either...

 

[LittleDingus]

You are missing the point on why to use the fabric.

Nope. I know how they work. I see more benefit from more complete drainage and air exchange.

What I'm saying is setting the bag in water or otherwise trapping moisture so the bag/soil interface cannot dry out defeats their effectiveness because the roots will still circle and not die.



This is from an oak in a prune bag one year after collection and hey look: circling roots! Why? That layer remained damp enough the roots could thrive.

Now if you grow your trees on the dry side...sure, yeah, they work...ish. But we put bonsai candidates in bags to get vigorous growth...which means water. So much water in some cases that we submerge the bags entirely...which I still contest defeats the root pruning benefits of bags.

...but I've stepped on @Cajunrider's thread long enough. My apologies to the OP.