Regarding Wound Healing
- Thread starter 0soyoung
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Do a test. On the same tree, cut a hole, let's say 1/4" in one side of your subject, in the opposite side same thing. Leave the same side in the sun always and other in shade. If you start in spring you will see the difference by August.
Oh make sure you don't use one of your dead kitty litter trees,
Sorry had too!
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
If either of these was a factor, both wounds would have closed more on the side toward that branch, right?
See post #18
In this test, the wounds are closing over deadwood. If you mean the Lindsay Farr gig, that is what I did with the cuts.
Both wounds were covered all season by either a damp wad of sphagnum or shiny Aluminum foil. Neither wound got any sunlight. Indeed, the foliage exposure to sunlight may have been unequal - see post #18
While I have misgivings that this caused the results shown, this is a good idea for
Metabolic reaction rates increase rapidly with temperature. It rarely gets much above room temperature outside, here, so I've thought about getting some heaters to speed up air-layers - why not for wound healing? [Why didn't I think of that?
] I could easily wind up with extension cords running every where!Thanks for the idea.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Fwiw, the side getting the most sun will also be the side that is photosynthesizing the most and, therefore, growing the most. My point is that the sun is doing more then just warming the wound...
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
This makes sense. So much so,That I had to go back to the pic.
This truth adds to my thought of maybe callous was favoring the easy side to callous. The cleaner side.
All I'm left with is the black. It is the only remaining difference to why one side of both branches grew more.
I actually finally see why this is so questionable in the first place!
Thanks Oso! Thought provoked!
Sorce
armetisius
Chumono
Looks to me as though side 2's upper branch experienced more growth as indicated by the greater girth change between the pics would evidence.
Woodland Spirit
Chumono
[Thread resurrection incantation]
I have cut branches off hundreds of trees.
Round cuts heal slower than sideways eye shape or teardrop shape or upside down teardrop shape.
A former acquaintance who was the best forestry/orchard man I know anything about showed me this technique.
He also carved the wood out to make the wound slightly concaved.
He followed the grain of the bark to make the cut.
Having a heathy branch above can help.
The only explanation he gave was "the sap flows vertical."
I have noticed a tendency for faster healing at the top.
I have cut branches off hundreds of trees.
Round cuts heal slower than sideways eye shape or teardrop shape or upside down teardrop shape.
A former acquaintance who was the best forestry/orchard man I know anything about showed me this technique.
He also carved the wood out to make the wound slightly concaved.
He followed the grain of the bark to make the cut.
Having a heathy branch above can help.
The only explanation he gave was "the sap flows vertical."
I have noticed a tendency for faster healing at the top.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
My pix illustrate his point.
Yes, indeed. Photosynthates from foliage descend in the phloem; a branch above is a sap source.
This is a nice incantation. This is good stuff BUT, this is a case about healing after a trunk chop - in a sense, there is no 'top' to the wound.
Could you explain how one sees the 'grain of the bark'? It certainly exists, but how does one find it (on an acer palmatum, say)?
Woodland Spirit
Chumono
Seeing the grain of the bark is easy on some trees. Others, I have no clue.
I was never that good at it, but he said it is in the flow of growth. You look not only where you intend to cut, but above and below.
In some cases I can see it.
I was never that good at it, but he said it is in the flow of growth. You look not only where you intend to cut, but above and below.
In some cases I can see it.
Woodland Spirit
Chumono
If it were mine I'd carve out the dead wood a bit, into a Y.
That way it looks better after its healed.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, maybe take some of the round out?
This is a question rather than advice.
Am I getting it right? This and the general vision of bonsai?
That way it looks better after its healed.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, maybe take some of the round out?
This is a question rather than advice.
Am I getting it right? This and the general vision of bonsai?
Woodland Spirit
Chumono
I don't get what that's about
MauroUna
Sapling
Yet another reason to rotate your trees! Especially if you have wounds need healing on opposite sides of the trunk. Thanks!
Woodland Spirit
Chumono
Stickroot I see more growth in one area, but what does it mean?
Edit:
Duh!
Big branch.
I am so clueless sometimes.
Edit:
Duh!
Big branch.
I am so clueless sometimes.
Yes, I am only letting it grow there to close that wound faster. You can see it is useless here, for design anyway.
It is about three feet tall right now and I will keep letting it grow. I will carve that flat cut into a V shape very soon.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Or just keep them in an open yard where the sun hits them all day long.
MauroUna
Sapling
Man I wish! I've got a 15x 15 area that gets morning to 2pm sun during the growing season. The rest of the yard is shade by 4 enormous loblollys...
You should see the amount of needles I clean up every winter... It may be time to call my tree guy bc this shit is out of control.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I decided to make something of this tree. This has been enough procrastination for 'experiments'. The first part of this process was a slanting chop of the upper trunk, that revealed some interesting physiological features.
My photos of the part I removed show the fine detail better. It may help to maintain your orientation to recall that this surface mated to the one shown above.
Even though the xylem is cells whose walls have been made into cellulose and then emptied out to transport water, each lumen has a living neighbor cell. These living cells are arranged in rings and rays (along a radial line). These living cells make the wood lightly colored or white-ish = live wood. Where these cells have died, the wood is darker = dead wood.
Each growing season, the cambium cells divide most become wood on the inside of the line of cambium 'stem cells', some become phloem (aka inner bark) and then bark (dead phloem and cork cells) to the outside. As we all know, this produces annual growth rings. I have identified the three growth rings since the die back occurred in the annotated photo.
To grow more wood, there must be a layer of cambium cells on top of the old wood and phloem to supply the photosynthates to make into cellulose (and for the cells to metabolize to make this all happen). In these cross-sections, I think it becomes obvious that the 'lip' doesn't roll or slide across the wound, but grows across in the same fashion as the stem thickens.
This also shows that the dead wood is not repaired/regrown - in other words it does not heal. The damage is just left in situ (compartmentalized) and what we call 'healing' is really just growing new wood that may happen to cover the dead stuff (which is in the slow process of decaying).
My photos of the part I removed show the fine detail better. It may help to maintain your orientation to recall that this surface mated to the one shown above.
Even though the xylem is cells whose walls have been made into cellulose and then emptied out to transport water, each lumen has a living neighbor cell. These living cells are arranged in rings and rays (along a radial line). These living cells make the wood lightly colored or white-ish = live wood. Where these cells have died, the wood is darker = dead wood.
Each growing season, the cambium cells divide most become wood on the inside of the line of cambium 'stem cells', some become phloem (aka inner bark) and then bark (dead phloem and cork cells) to the outside. As we all know, this produces annual growth rings. I have identified the three growth rings since the die back occurred in the annotated photo.
To grow more wood, there must be a layer of cambium cells on top of the old wood and phloem to supply the photosynthates to make into cellulose (and for the cells to metabolize to make this all happen). In these cross-sections, I think it becomes obvious that the 'lip' doesn't roll or slide across the wound, but grows across in the same fashion as the stem thickens.
This also shows that the dead wood is not repaired/regrown - in other words it does not heal. The damage is just left in situ (compartmentalized) and what we call 'healing' is really just growing new wood that may happen to cover the dead stuff (which is in the slow process of decaying).
Timbo
Chumono
While I think I agree with your conclusion Osoyoung through none of my exp 
I'm wondering, if it isn't really healing, it's actually dried up dead wood that the tree tries to cover to keep it from rotting, then why does everyone use cut paste to keep moisture in? My logical understanding is you want it to dry out and turn into deadwood so it creates a callus. I did a small experiment with my collected trees this spring and put petroleum jelly on some chops and nothing on others. The moisture would 'bubble' out of the cut and just evaporate anyways. The only difference I noticed was more black mold on the jelly due to keeping what I perceive as dead or dying cells wet. The only dieback I noticed was above the bud break which was always close to the top....even on 4 inch stumps.
Look at trees that have had a decent size limb break off in proportion of the tree or cut by crews, they seem to at least get a good start at covering it up. I'm pretty sure they don't put aluminum foil, vaseline, or any other goop on with no arms.
I've seen some naturally chopped trees try to callus some pretty big holes. They do rot out more often but they still try to cover it up. I have a beech I collected that somehow got chopped i'm guessing a year and a half ago, as slow as they heal it had a nice callus closing over the big hole the missing branch made.
I guess i'm looking for a good reason why I should add something else to use/buy to the long list of 'needed' items in bonsai
Old post I know, but it was the kind of topic I like to read and talk about. Some opinions or facts based on RL trials, not just because.
I'm wondering, if it isn't really healing, it's actually dried up dead wood that the tree tries to cover to keep it from rotting, then why does everyone use cut paste to keep moisture in? My logical understanding is you want it to dry out and turn into deadwood so it creates a callus. I did a small experiment with my collected trees this spring and put petroleum jelly on some chops and nothing on others. The moisture would 'bubble' out of the cut and just evaporate anyways. The only difference I noticed was more black mold on the jelly due to keeping what I perceive as dead or dying cells wet. The only dieback I noticed was above the bud break which was always close to the top....even on 4 inch stumps.Look at trees that have had a decent size limb break off in proportion of the tree or cut by crews, they seem to at least get a good start at covering it up. I'm pretty sure they don't put aluminum foil, vaseline, or any other goop on with no arms.
I've seen some naturally chopped trees try to callus some pretty big holes. They do rot out more often but they still try to cover it up. I have a beech I collected that somehow got chopped i'm guessing a year and a half ago, as slow as they heal it had a nice callus closing over the big hole the missing branch made.I guess i'm looking for a good reason why I should add something else to use/buy to the long list of 'needed' items in bonsai
Old post I know, but it was the kind of topic I like to read and talk about. Some opinions or facts based on RL trials, not just because.
Last edited:
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I'm with you on Vaseline, it's only good for one thing.
Cut paste however, does do what it's supposed to.
Believe it or not...after witnessing some wound closures of old stuff I used the black spectracide spray stuff on awhile back, I am a fan of it too.
Probly more so than my tub of Japanese paste.
But you can't just spray it on a bonsai.
You gotta spray it in a dish and apply it with a toothpick.
For $2 on clearance...it's worth it.
Sorce
Cut paste however, does do what it's supposed to.
Believe it or not...after witnessing some wound closures of old stuff I used the black spectracide spray stuff on awhile back, I am a fan of it too.
Probly more so than my tub of Japanese paste.
But you can't just spray it on a bonsai.
You gotta spray it in a dish and apply it with a toothpick.
For $2 on clearance...it's worth it.
Sorce
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