Quercus Faginea (Portuguese Oak)

[justBonsai]

Super nice oak. I like the foliage on this one.

You could go for a shorter more powerful trunk if you reduced the leader. If you lived in a warmer climate I would have recommended growing out the top more but thickening that leader in the UK may take some times. And I think you have other options. Do you know how good this species is on backbudding?

I have a fun oak with a lot of deadwood too. But because its native to my area I can thicken branches and leaders very quickly.

 

[ConorDash]

@ConorDash so just reading a bit (yeah Google!) It seems that they are semi-evergreen and are found in the same areas as Holy Oak and Cork Oak. So I would pretty much give them the same care. Best advice I ever got on European evergreen oaks was from Mauro Stemberger and that was to do any repotting just before bud break.

If they are like the others, they will grow really fast so don't let the wire bite in. You will want to wire when the branches are small. Check out the Grouper's tutorial on baby bending. https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/the-fine-art-of-baby-bending.13/


Oh with oaks NEVER put new soil or leaf litter on the root crown. They are susceptible to crown rot. It's one of the few "gotchas" with oaks.

So the repotting rules are same as maple really, that phase between extending and break, is the perfect repotting zone. Advised by Graham Potter and Harry harryington. Well that's some highly recommended advice if I ever did see it .

I did have a good look at the wire when bought and I need to continue to check more tomorrow, but I don't think it's ready to come off yet. You can see on the leader/trunk some wire was left on and cut in a good bit. But I'm told and it looks as though it will roll in and heal fairly quickly. I will double check wires tomorrow. There's a good load of them...!

Any useful tips on checking for when wire is ready to come off? Not something I'm used to at all. Seems a difficult thing to judge till it's to late.
I don't think this oak will grow that vigorously this season. It was repotted in spring.

About crown rot, that's very interesting, I need to look that up more! Sounds like a big deal. How can one avoid putting soil on the crown? If it needs it for whatever reason, or moss on top for helping surface roots or even repotting, how does one avoid that issue?
I will make sure to clear dead leaves off of it, as a priority! Very good to know. Thank you.

 

[ConorDash]

Super nice oak. I like the foliage on this one.

You could go for a shorter more powerful trunk if you reduced the leader. If you lived in a warmer climate I would have recommended growing out the top more but thickening that leader in the UK may take some times. And I think you have other options. Do you know how good this species is on backbudding?

I have a fun oak with a lot of deadwood too. But because its native to my area I can thicken branches and leaders very quickly.

From what I have read, yes, they are good strong growers, I believe it was talking about back budding too but not certain. I don't imagine they are as good as elms but I think they are very strong.
I'm told by Graham that these species are suited well to our climate, they are good in it. He sells a lot of these trees, they seem to be a fav of his.
I am interested in reducing the trunk, getting it thicker and making a strong stout trunk. At the moment, general consensus is, it's too high. Would mean losing some nice branchs though... . But I'm not gonna be one of those people who doesn't touch a tree for its own good, cos of losing its current appearance. It's all about working toward something more. Gotta look shit before it looks good! Then better, then great, then amazing.

 

[defra]

Real Nice tree looking forward to its progression !

 

[ConorDash]

@rockm from your previous comments, can you point out the chlorosis? I had a look and I cannot see discolouration of leaves. However your eye is.. "tad" more experienced than mine!
And do you have any advice going forward with this tree, aside from happy and healthy?

 

[rockm]

@rockm from your previous comments, can you point out the chlorosis? I had a look and I cannot see discolouration of leaves. However your eye is.. "tad" more experienced than mine!
And do you have any advice going forward with this tree, aside from happy and healthy?

In the fifth photo lower right side--some of the leaves show paler interiors and greener veins. That's chlorosis. Not serious, but something to keep in mind.

I've been talking with my friends who own a bonsai nursery about my oak and developing it. I've taken up a fertilizing regimen designed to shorten internodes and keep leaves thick and green. As part of that, I'm dosing 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom salts per gallon of water once every two weeks in addition to my regular weekly feeding. Epsom salt contains magnesium and sulphur, both trace elements that plants need. It has helped. Trees are greener and leaves tend to be thicker, especially on my oak, which deters some chewing pests.

I would NOT touch that leader for the next five years at least. I would then prune it back to that first twig (which will be a branch by then) and then work on building a crown--which will result in probably extensive backbudding you will get back down the trunk by removing that leader after it has had time to grow.

The leader in my big oak was about the same size as yours when I got it back in the 90's. It took quite a while to build it up so it visually matched the trunk. It's not a quick process. You will not use 95percent of what you've got there now and what you get in the future. You are interested ONLY in the first three to five inches of what's there now. The rest is sacrifice.

As it is now, if you keep that long whip of an apex branch, the "final" tree will look a bit jarring with a long, unblemished and thin top. Oaks are rugged trees, Oaks with trunk like yours with thick craggy bark can't be treated like a maple. Their grace isn't in flowing branches, but thick, hearty branches and stout tops.

 

[ConorDash]

In the fifth photo lower right side--some of the leaves show paler interiors and greener veins. That's chlorosis. Not serious, but something to keep in mind.

I've been talking with my friends who own a bonsai nursery about my oak and developing it. I've taken up a fertilizing regimen designed to shorten internodes and keep leaves thick and green. As part of that, I'm dosing 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom salts per gallon of water once every two weeks in addition to my regular weekly feeding. Epsom salt contains magnesium and sulphur, both trace elements that plants need. It has helped. Trees are greener and leaves tend to be thicker, especially on my oak, which deters some chewing pests.

I would NOT touch that leader for the next five years at least. I would then prune it back to that first twig (which will be a branch by then) and then work on building a crown--which will result in probably extensive backbudding you will get back down the trunk by removing that leader after it has had time to grow.

The leader in my big oak was about the same size as yours when I got it back in the 90's. It took quite a while to build it up so it visually matched the trunk. It's not a quick process. You will not use 95percent of what you've got there now and what you get in the future. You are interested ONLY in the first three to five inches of what's there now. The rest is sacrifice.

As it is now, if you keep that long whip of an apex branch, the "final" tree will look a bit jarring with a long, unblemished and thin top. Oaks are rugged trees, Oaks with trunk like yours with thick craggy bark can't be treated like a maple. Their grace isn't in flowing branches, but thick, hearty branches and stout tops.

Very insightful reply, thank you .
I cannot say much aside from all of your advice makes completely sense. Thick stout branches and trunk are very much my goal. However I would like to make sure it has the very curved oak branches on it, to make sure it is in that oak style.
At the moment I love the leader transitioning from the heavy set bark, and over years, that will only get better and better.
Well, one thing is for sure, I won't be touching it for at least a year any way. Following your advice, it could turn in to 5 years, however there's plenty of time in between to re-evaluate after many many hours spent looking at it.
When you say not touch it... you'd let all those branches grow out, untouched for all those years? Wow.. just thinking. I let branches grow out on my elm this season, for about 5-6 weeks and they looked super thick. I can't imagine what branches left to grow for years will become.. but the resulting leader trunk would be thickening rapidly!

There's a technique to age the bark quickly, over a few years.. I can't see it being completely needed but I could try it, for experience. Essentially involves wrapping a trunk or branch in sphagnum with cling film and leaving it, keeping it alive for a few years. Read it in Art of Bonsai by Colin Lewis.

 

[Velodog2]

At the risk of repeating what's already been said, I agree that the leader should be much shorter. The old trunk is great. It even seems to have good movement in the second pic. I think it will always be the focal point of the tree, and the leader will never, I don't think, be able to compete for thickness or character. As a result, and just as a matter of proportions, I don't think the leader should be more than about a third of its length.

 

[ConorDash]

At the risk of repeating what's already been said, I agree that the leader should be much shorter. The old trunk is great. It even seems to have good movement in the second pic. I think it will always be the focal point of the tree, and the leader will never, I don't think, be able to compete for thickness or character. As a result, and just as a matter of proportions, I don't think the leader should be more than about a third of its length.

I agree with you. I'll use what the tree has and exemplify its best features.

 

[rockm]

TO

Very insightful reply, thank you .
I cannot say much aside from all of your advice makes completely sense. Thick stout branches and trunk are very much my goal. However I would like to make sure it has the very curved oak branches on it, to make sure it is in that oak style.
At the moment I love the leader transitioning from the heavy set bark, and over years, that will only get better and better.
Well, one thing is for sure, I won't be touching it for at least a year any way. Following your advice, it could turn in to 5 years, however there's plenty of time in between to re-evaluate after many many hours spent looking at it.
When you say not touch it... you'd let all those branches grow out, untouched for all those years? Wow.. just thinking. I let branches grow out on my elm this season, for about 5-6 weeks and they looked super thick. I can't imagine what branches left to grow for years will become.. but the resulting leader trunk would be thickening rapidly!

There's a technique to age the bark quickly, over a few years.. I can't see it being completely needed but I could try it, for experience. Essentially involves wrapping a trunk or branch in sphagnum with cling film and leaving it, keeping it alive for a few years. Read it in Art of Bonsai by Colin Lewis.

Yep. Would let it simply grow out. You are aiming to use ONLY THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR INCHES of what is grown out. That means wiring above that is kind of futile.

Oaks are not elms. They don't grow as quickly or develop bark as quickly. Allowing that extension to grow unhindered will also get you a good start on thicker bark on the apex branches. The transition as it is now is rather jarring. The thin whip "necks down" noticeably. The aim in growing out the top will be to ease that transition.

 

[rockm]

At the risk of repeating what's already been said, I agree that the leader should be much shorter. The old trunk is great. It even seems to have good movement in the second pic. I think it will always be the focal point of the tree, and the leader will never, I don't think, be able to compete for thickness or character. As a result, and just as a matter of proportions, I don't think the leader should be more than about a third of its length.

It will, but it will take some time to accomplish. Same goes for convincing branching. The lower branches on this aren't nearly thick and warty enough to match the bark. They won't be for a decade or so.

 

[ConorDash]

TO
Yep. Would let it simply grow out. You are aiming to use ONLY THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR INCHES of what is grown out. That means wiring above that is kind of futile.

Oaks are not elms. They don't grow as quickly or develop bark as quickly. Allowing that extension to grow unhindered will also get you a good start on thicker bark on the apex branches. The transition as it is now is rather jarring. The thin whip "necks down" noticeably. The aim in growing out the top will be to ease that transition.

It will, but it will take some time to accomplish. Same goes for convincing branching. The lower branches on this aren't nearly thick and warty enough to match the bark. They won't be for a decade or so.

Thanks for your info.
Almost as if you pay a price in years for using such material with great bark on it?
The better the bark, the longer you have to develop a leader and primary branches for thickness and transitioning the bark texture.

 

[rockm]

Thanks for your info.
Almost as if you pay a price in years for using such material with great bark on it?
The better the bark, the longer you have to develop a leader and primary branches for thickness and transitioning the bark texture.

You do pay a price for that old bark, but only in a decade, not a century or longer. That trunk might be that old. Hard to tell.

For years, I had people tell me that my live oak's branches didn't "match" the bark, as if that were my fault...Well, the branches, grown completely from a bare trunk post-collection, were only 15 years old, while the trunk was over 250. It's a nice problem to have though. Collecting older deciduous trees comes with the built in need to grow out a new apex and branching, while alot of older collected conifers existing branches can be simply (relatively) twisted, bent severely and wired into place. Collected deciduous trees can take more time and more finesse...

No doubt conifer-heads will now chime in and tell me how very wrong I am--which I'm not..;-)

 

[ConorDash]

You do pay a price for that old bark, but only in a decade, not a century or longer. That trunk might be that old. Hard to tell.

For years, I had people tell me that my live oak's branches didn't "match" the bark, as if that were my fault...Well, the branches, grown completely from a bare trunk post-collection, were only 15 years old, while the trunk was over 250. It's a nice problem to have though. Collecting older deciduous trees comes with the built in need to grow out a new apex and branching, while alot of older collected conifers existing branches can be simply (relatively) twisted, bent severely and wired into place. Collected deciduous trees can take more time and more finesse...

No doubt conifer-heads will now chime in and tell me how very wrong I am--which I'm not..;-)

Takes time but it's a great result if done correctly.

I've not actually considered how old my tree may be.. if you had to guess, what do you think?
I don't think I could guess at all, not experienced enough.
Aside from counting rings if you chopped the trunk in half (which is also rather difficult and maybe inaccurate?) is there much else one can do to guess a trees age?

 

[rockm]

Takes time but it's a great result if done correctly.

I've not actually considered how old my tree may be.. if you had to guess, what do you think?
I don't think I could guess at all, not experienced enough.
Aside from counting rings if you chopped the trunk in half (which is also rather difficult and maybe inaccurate?) is there much else one can do to guess a trees age?

No reliable way to tell. Can't really estimate the age. It could be 200 or it could be 30 or less--depends on a lot of stuff. You could take a stab at an estimate, if you can find an area on the dead trunk where growth rings are visible. From the side, those rings look like "grain" of the wood, but from above, they are visible as rings around the trunk. If you can find an area where you can count them coherently, you could get a ballpark on age--one ring per year for oaks and other temperate zone trees.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

I do not remember the winter in the UK being much colder than that in Portugal. Wetter... for sure, but not much colder. I think the oak will do just fine there. Just protect it from extreme wetting or use a highly draining soil. Here in Portugal Q. faginea is common in the central region in between Q. robur (in the North and at higher elevations) and Q. suber and Q. ilex (in the south) - so it's in a transition between hot and dry and temperate and humid and should therefore be quite flexible. It should be similar to your olive. No snow, but otherwise it will be fine.

It's a protected species here in Portugal and provides important ecosystem services. According to the Portuguese wiki page, it does not have apical dominance: all branches grow to the same extent.

Nice tree

I got a Q. ilex. Collected the nut, germinated and it's growing... very slow (5 leaves in 1 year). I think I'm going to plant it somewhere and forget about it

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yup , does anybody know if English oak does well in zone 6-7? Too hot?

Though it is a deciduous oak, English Oak (Quercus robur) occurs broadly in Europe up through zone 8 and in scattered spots in zones 9 and even 10 (north coast of Spain and northern coast of Portugal). Zone 6-7 would be well within its natural range.

 

[ConorDash]

No reliable way to tell. Can't really estimate the age. It could be 200 or it could be 30 or less--depends on a lot of stuff. You could take a stab at an estimate, if you can find an area on the dead trunk where growth rings are visible. From the side, those rings look like "grain" of the wood, but from above, they are visible as rings around the trunk. If you can find an area where you can count them coherently, you could get a ballpark on age--one ring per year for oaks and other temperate zone trees.

I will have a look, shame to not know. Was thinking perhaps due to the condition of the bark, there was a ball park on what age one has to be, to have that bark. Oh well. Thanks any way. I don't think it has any places where the grain is showing, but will check .

I do not remember the winter in the UK being much colder than that in Portugal. Wetter... for sure, but not much colder. I think the oak will do just fine there. Just protect it from extreme wetting or use a highly draining soil. Here in Portugal Q. faginea is common in the central region in between Q. robur (in the North and at higher elevations) and Q. suber and Q. ilex (in the south) - so it's in a transition between hot and dry and temperate and humid and should therefore be quite flexible. It should be similar to your olive. No snow, but otherwise it will be fine.

It's a protected species here in Portugal and provides important ecosystem services. According to the Portuguese wiki page, it does not have apical dominance: all branches grow to the same extent.

Nice tree

I got a Q. ilex. Collected the nut, germinated and it's growing... very slow (5 leaves in 1 year). I think I'm going to plant it somewhere and forget about it

Thank you, well put together post and informative. Very good to know. I've an unheated shed and garage to choose from, if need be. I believe their temp limit is about -5c, so any kinda temperatures that stay -2.-3.-4c in winter, for prolonged periods, I will shelter it. We don't get -5c though, bit too cold.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Ya shoulda got this one
http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/portuguese-oak-yamadori-bonsai-material-rm1518

No KIDDING!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hello,

This is a new tree of mine, just delivered yesterday. From Graham Potter's Kaizen.

I believe it was collected 2 years ago and has been with them ever since, repotted in Spring.

Let me know what you think and with any advice for its care. It's my first oak, my previous (current) species experience is with Elm, Olive, Maple, Pyracantha and Ficus.
Link at the bottom is to a load more pictures, in case you'd like to see more.

View attachment 152198 View attachment 152199 View attachment 152200 View attachment 152201 View attachment 152202 View attachment 152203 View attachment 152204 View attachment 152205 View attachment 152206 View attachment 152207

https://flickr.com/photos/150283904@N08/sets/72157685942640455

Main priority and plan is a happy healthy tree.

Enviable tree! Nice bark. Some wire scar to grow out. Allow dead wood to deteriorate naturally as looks WAY too man made. Otherwise just time, love and time.