Opposing Thoughts and Practices on Bonsai for Beginners

[Kadebe]

Deleted...wrong thread

 

[LAS]

What would you sat are good water attributes? I can adjust ph and dechlorinate. But, what we would ideal?

What would you say are good water attributes? I can adjust ph and declorinate. But what would be ideal?

 

[Katie0317]

What would you say are good water attributes? I can adjust ph and declorinate. But what would be ideal?

Get a rain barrel and water your trees with rain water. That's the ideal.

 

[LAS]

On days that you can’t use rain water, do you ph water/dechlorinate. I don’t see many pepole doing that.

 

[Katie0317]

On days that you can’t use rain water, do you ph water/dechlorinate. I don’t see many pepole doing that.

You can dechlorinate your water by filling your watering can the night before and by the next day the chlorine will be gone.

 

[LAS]

You can dechlorinate your water by filling your watering can the night before and by the next day the chlorine will be gone.

The problem is that will not get rid of the chloramines. Which are the worse than chlorine.

 

[Lorax7]

The problem is that will not get rid of the chloramines. Which are the worse than chlorine.

It's irrelevant. Chloramine doesn't cause appreciable harm to plants.

 

[BonScience]

I use a garden hose filter for my outdoor plants and leave 2gal of water out at least over night for my indoor pants and seems to be doing well. In the future i'd like to collect rainwater, but i don't have the means right now.
What methods do people use to test for what's in their water? All the water test kits on Amazon and the like seem of dubious or varying quality. Any reputable sources for water testing?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

What would you say are good water attributes? I can adjust ph and declorinate. But what would be ideal?

You are in Chicago area. If your water comes from Lake Michigan, you don't need to worry about water quality. Great Lakes water ranges from medium to soft in terms of hardness, meaning calcium carbonate content. Lake Michigan tap water usually averages around 180 mg/liter total alkalinity as calcium carbonate. This measurement is more important than pH. Total Alkalinity is the measure of buffer capacity of the water. This is the resistance to change of pH by small additions of acid or base. Soft water has low buffer capacity, simply breathing over the glass of water will change the pH. Hard water has a high buffer capacity, and it may take a significant addition of acid or base to make a small change in pH. Lake Michigan tap water is "pretty good" for horticulture.

Lake Michigan water tends to average 230 ppm total dissolved solids. This is medium. Water from Lake Superior tends to be around 60 To 120 ppm total dissolved solids. Lake Huron chemistry is nearly identical to Lake Michigan. Lake Erie has somewhat higher TDS, and as you move down the Saint Lawrence Seaway, water gets harder, until you hit the Atlantic. Pre-Industrial total dissolved solids was lower for the Great Lakes, the TDS closely matched the Total Alkalinity, as most of the solids in the water was Calcium Carbonate from limestone. The rise in TDS has been shown to largely be due to winter use of road salt. Those tons of road salt do end up in the rivers, streams and eventually the Great Lakes. Prior to 1890 the Total Alkalinity of Lake Michigan was still around 180mg/liter, but the Total dissolved solids was very close to 190 mg/liter or 190 ppm. The rise in TDS is mostly road salt, and other soluble pollutants.

The pH of water in ALL MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS MUST BE BUFFERED TO ABOVE 7.8 to prevent LEAD POISONING. Its the Law. This is why it is pointless to measure pH of tap water, because it will be around 8 or a little higher, or your city employees risk going to jail. Talk to the folks in Flint Michigan. Actually thinking of Flint, do measure your pH and call the police if the pH is less than 7,8 out of the tap, your city employees are trying to poison you. Acidic water leaches lead out of solder in copper pipes and brass fittings and out of galvanized and other plumbing fixtures. And at one time in the past, water pipes were made of lead, under the belief that metallic lead was inert to water. Chicago area has some 140 year old plumbing in some areas, got to keep the water alkaline to protect the people. Basic public health.

The chlorine out products from pet shop - aquarium stores will knock the chloramines out of your water. But in general, chloramines are not a big deal on tree roots. The trees are largely immune to chloramines. Most Chicago and Milwaukee area bonsai growers ignore the chloramine issue and just water their trees when they need it, with water straight from the tap. I see no reason you need to do anything different.

However one Milwaukee grower does worry about chloramines, he is very concerned about using Organic Growing Techniques. Only organic fertilizers, minimal pest control and nurturing in every way possible the mycorrhizae in the soil of our bonsai pots. Here large tanks, or 55 gallon drums to collect rain water, and or store tap water long enough for chloramine to break down are used. Aquarium air stones constantly bubbling air to keep water turning over in the 55 gallon drums and or stock water tanks are useful to gas off chloramines and help encourage microbial decomposition of the chloramines. After all, the amine part of the chloramine, can be used by some microbes as a nutrient. I'm of mixed mind on this effort. His trees are healthy, but no more so than "chemical Joe" who uses every synthetic chemical known to man on his trees. My observations involve samples sizes too small to really make meaningful declarations from. BY ad large, in the greater Chicago-Milwaukee metroplex and Detroit area too, all along the Great Lakes, if you are lucky enough to have Great Lakes municipal water your bonsai will benefit. What ever problems you are having are not coming from the water.

 

[rockm]

I use a garden hose filter for my outdoor plants and leave 2gal of water out at least over night for my indoor pants and seems to be doing well. In the future i'd like to collect rainwater, but i don't have the means right now.
What methods do people use to test for what's in their water? All the water test kits on Amazon and the like seem of dubious or varying quality. Any reputable sources for water testing?

If you're interested in getting a water quality test, your water utility has to do it regularly and probably posts the results. I really wouldn't worry about this issue. If you live east of the Mississippi, It's mostly a non-starter unless you're on a well.

 

[BonScience]

If you're interested in getting a water quality test, your water utility has to do it regularly and probably posts the results. I really wouldn't worry about this issue. If you live east of the Mississippi, It's mostly a non-starter unless you're on a well.

Thanks for the tip! Leo's post shed a good bit of light on that. I don't seem to have any issues but i like having the data. At least it seems i don't have anything to really worry about

 

[LAS]

It's irrelevant. Chloramine doesn't cause appreciable harm to plants.

But they crush your microbial/fungal population. So, I don’t do chloramine

 

[LAS]

You are in Chicago area. If your water comes from Lake Michigan, you don't need to worry about water quality. Great Lakes water ranges from medium to soft in terms of hardness, meaning calcium carbonate content. Lake Michigan tap water usually averages around 180 mg/liter total alkalinity as calcium carbonate. This measurement is more important than pH. Total Alkalinity is the measure of buffer capacity of the water. This is the resistance to change of pH by small additions of acid or base. Soft water has low buffer capacity, simply breathing over the glass of water will change the pH. Hard water has a high buffer capacity, and it may take a significant addition of acid or base to make a small change in pH. Lake Michigan tap water is "pretty good" for horticulture.

Lake Michigan water tends to average 230 ppm total dissolved solids. This is medium. Water from Lake Superior tends to be around 60 To 120 ppm total dissolved solids. Lake Huron chemistry is nearly identical to Lake Michigan. Lake Erie has somewhat higher TDS, and as you move down the Saint Lawrence Seaway, water gets harder, until you hit the Atlantic. Pre-Industrial total dissolved solids was lower for the Great Lakes, the TDS closely matched the Total Alkalinity, as most of the solids in the water was Calcium Carbonate from limestone. The rise in TDS has been shown to largely be due to winter use of road salt. Those tons of road salt do end up in the rivers, streams and eventually the Great Lakes. Prior to 1890 the Total Alkalinity of Lake Michigan was still around 180mg/liter, but the Total dissolved solids was very close to 190 mg/liter or 190 ppm. The rise in TDS is mostly road salt, and other soluble pollutants.

The pH of water in ALL MUNICIPAL SYSTEMS MUST BE BUFFERED TO ABOVE 7.8 to prevent LEAD POISONING. Its the Law. This is why it is pointless to measure pH of tap water, because it will be around 8 or a little higher, or your city employees risk going to jail. Talk to the folks in Flint Michigan. Actually thinking of Flint, do measure your pH and call the police if the pH is less than 7,8 out of the tap, your city employees are trying to poison you. Acidic water leaches lead out of solder in copper pipes and brass fittings and out of galvanized and other plumbing fixtures. And at one time in the past, water pipes were made of lead, under the belief that metallic lead was inert to water. Chicago area has some 140 year old plumbing in some areas, got to keep the water alkaline to protect the people. Basic public health.

The chlorine out products from pet shop - aquarium stores will knock the chloramines out of your water. But in general, chloramines are not a big deal on tree roots. The trees are largely immune to chloramines. Most Chicago and Milwaukee area bonsai growers ignore the chloramine issue and just water their trees when they need it, with water straight from the tap. I see no reason you need to do anything different.

However one Milwaukee grower does worry about chloramines, he is very concerned about using Organic Growing Techniques. Only organic fertilizers, minimal pest control and nurturing in every way possible the mycorrhizae in the soil of our bonsai pots. Here large tanks, or 55 gallon drums to collect rain water, and or store tap water long enough for chloramine to break down are used. Aquarium air stones constantly bubbling air to keep water turning over in the 55 gallon drums and or stock water tanks are useful to gas off chloramines and help encourage microbial decomposition of the chloramines. After all, the amine part of the chloramine, can be used by some microbes as a nutrient. I'm of mixed mind on this effort. His trees are healthy, but no more so than "chemical Joe" who uses every synthetic chemical known to man on his trees. My observations involve samples sizes too small to really make meaningful declarations from. BY ad large, in the greater Chicago-Milwaukee metroplex and Detroit area too, all along the Great Lakes, if you are lucky enough to have Great Lakes municipal water your bonsai will benefit. What ever problems you are having are not coming from the water.

Thank you very much for taking the time to post this.

So, the ph out of the tap on the northwest side of Chicago has been 7.0 to 7.2 at my house for the past 4 years that I’ve been measuring it. We have Lake Michigan water. When I tested alk it came out 145. I’ve always been happy with that parameter.

 

[Lorax7]

But they crush your microbial/fungal population. So, I don’t do chloramine

No, it doesn’t. Not in the low concentrations present in municipal water supplies. My water is treated with chloramine. I water my trees with it every day. When I repot trees, I still see plenty of evidence of healthy mycorrhizae.

 

[LAS]

No, it doesn’t. Not in the low concentrations present in municipal water supplies. My water is treated with chloramine. I water my trees with it every day. When I repot trees, I still see plenty of evidence of healthy mycorrhizae.

i understand - you have your way and i have mine. thanks for your input

 

[waydeo]

I have noticed when I put my indoor trees outside during a rain shower the next day they look better. Rainwater is the best .

 

[Lorax7]

i understand - you have your way and i have mine. thanks for your input

It’s not a matter of ways. We’re not in the realm of opinion here. You made an assertion that chloraminated municipal tap water will “crush your microbial/fungal population.” This is a testable hypothesis. It has been tested by many bonsai practitioners and found to be false. Just admit that you’re wrong.

 

[LAS]

I’m not about to argue with you. I know the effect of chloramine on mycelium. My assertion was that chloramine crushes fungal population. You can twist words if you like. Doesn’t work with me. I don’t do chloramine in any quantity. Have a nice day

 

[Lorax7]

I’m not about to argue with you. I know the effect of chloramine on mycelium. My assertion was that chloramine crushes fungal population. You can twist words if you like. Doesn’t work with me. I don’t do chloramine in any quantity. Have a nice day

In what way am I twisting any of your words? You say “chloramine crushes fungal population”. You do realize that nobody is pouring undiluted industrial strength chloramine onto their plants, right?

People water their plants with tap water. The municipality that delivers the tap water treats it with chloramine. According to the water quality report of the municipality where I live, the maximum allowable concentration of chloramine is 4 ppm. I’m not sure if that maximum is set nationally by the EPA or if it’s determined at the state level. In either case, the average amount actually present in the water is 2.1 ppm, according to their report. Chloramine, at the levels actually present in the water that people use, is the only form that has any relevance to the discussion. My experience (and that of many others) is that any effect on beneficial microbes and fungi in the context of growing little trees in pots is negligible.

If chloramine, at the levels delivered in municipal tap water, actually “crushes fungal population” as you claim, then why are my Japanese white pines, Japanese black pines, ponderosa pines, red pines, etc. thriving despite being watered regularly with chloraminated water? It’s well known that pines are heavily dependent on mycorrhizae to extract nutrients from the soil. If my fungal population is crushed, why aren’t my pines dying?

 

[Paradox]

Well apparently the mycorrhiza in my pines are super fungi because I water with county chlorinated/chloromine tap water every day for 11 years and every time I repot, there is tons of it in the soil.
Sometimes the mycorrhiza is so thick, it starts clogging the drain holes of the pots.