Opinions on an Amur Maple being auctioned

[Owen Reich]

Amur maples don’t seem to perform well in the Southeast. Seems like anywhere below PA on the east cost (close to sea level) is questionable for bonsai culture. There was an Amur maple hedge in the ground here in nashville for almost 20 years, and it always struggled.

Hedge maples do well, as do most other maples. I have yet to see a good one in the southeast that has kept its branches year to year that was not growing at altitudes like those of Asheville or other Appalachian Mtn range towns. They do fine there, but winters are more harsh.

 

[davetree]

This is all on you Mister. You threw out the challenge and how wonderful this piece of material was. Frankly I hope no one helps you. I want you to understand just what a pathetic piece of material this is and learn about that all on your own. I want you to think about what others had to say and what they said was wrong and how you treated them with contempt and disrespect. maybe you should seek out Mr Pall, you made it quite clear that he was your savior with this material. He spoke about how wonderful it was too. Maybe he can step up and show you the way.

I'm tired of all you wanna be's thinking you are so smart and calling out those with the experience and telling them they should just keep their opinions to their self.

This is on you Belero. Show us what "YOU" got. If you really have what it takes you will do this on your own.....or your just another loud mouth.

Smoke is absolutely right on this. First, it’s poor material. I can buy better Amur maple at the local nursery for $25. Second, if I lived in your zone, I would be buying trident and Japanese maples instead of trying to grow Amur maple.

 

[Smoke]

smoke... you seriously need to go back on your Meds as well as getting some help, good bye...

Don't put this on me. Your the one that said all the stupid things about this tree. Was that the truth or wasn't it.

Here is the run down as to what you said in six pages. Pay special attention to the ones I have marked in blue as to your words as to what you would do with it. Why make up with me, by apologizing using a stupid remark like I edited my comments. You and I both know I didn't. Then you want to ask me questions on how best to attack this tree. Can you do it or can't you?

"I think it is very unique and worthy, the foilage indicates that it is very healthy, it should be in a larger pot and some creative work done on the roots...easily worth 100-150.....
I would re-position it more to the vertical and do some cutting to expose the trunk on the gnarly side...it has great potential....Buy It...

The parts here is red I have no idea about. Never heard of a Japanese Elm Maple, and I have no idea why trident even came up. On one was ever talking about tridents, it was never mentioned and frankly it just sounds ignorant to me.

I'm pretty sure it's a Japanese Elm Maple not a true Trident.

...the Unique Trunk is what makes this a Special Bonsai but it will take a true Bonsai Specialist to bring out the Hidden Uniqueness....

This also appears to be a Japanese Elm Maple...

Dear Smoke I respect your opinion, as always, however in a Non-Perfect World this example could lend itself to some Ingenious Carving on the trunk in order to replicate an older partially dead but being a Survivor possible a Mountain Top Survivor...this type of Bonsai Art is not Un-Common and this Japanese Maple is perfect for that Task.....

FWIW I believe this is a Grafted example....."

Great Minds think alike and that is why Walter Pall and I like the Amur Maple of the OP...

This is where the thread took a turn and became personal. Up until this point it was about the tree, then the OP had to take some shots at those he didn't agree with. walter agrees so he gets an attaboy in red. Yeah, participation trophy again.

Thanks Walter, you've reinforced my thinking and commentary regards the Amur Maple of the OP....
Good to know I was on the right track all along and on another note I'm saddened to see so many Short Sighted Experts here and some of these folks are considered Masters, I'll have to re-think my thought's of So Called Masters....
Thanks again Walter for your Expert comments...

For the Record and FWIW, I have purchased the Amur Maple of the OP....I will do a thread on my efforts to Transform thru Carving this excellent Example so stay tuned all......
Chuck aka Bolero

You will have to figure out a way to ask me for suggestions, I'm not giving them freely. You have disrespected me and ask your self, after this exchange why should that guy help me?

Thanks for your interest and commentary Mr. Smoke, I'll try to not disappoint...I need to get the tree in my hands to really ascertain my direction, I'll take pictures as I progress, hopefully you will offer some suggestions as I move along and ask for comment and direction...Good to know you are retired, so am I. I have over 50 odd years of interest in Bonsai as well as considering myself an Accomplished Bonsai & Penjing Gardner...

You know, I don't have 50 years of bonsai experience. I only have 36. But what I do have is a photo documentation of most everything I have done, except for some photo's I lost in computer crashes, but still have the trees so they go on. Can you show me three of your best trees to date? Before and afters would be marvelous, but I can't expect everyone to do what I do. Lets make this about the trees and not me or you. That goes no where and you just end up looking silly.

 

[Smoke]

Well, good luck with it. Despite all that has been said I still believe it possible to pull a good tree out of this I’m glad it will be in the forum to get a better look at.

Define good tree?

Is that what bonsai as discussed on internet forums has degraded to, just finding a good tree?

What happened to finding a masterpiece?

Why does the forum, present company excluded, always seem to shoot for the lowest denominator when it comes to bonsai.

I always shoot for the best. The masterpiece. Do I fail? Hell yes, more often than not. Have I ever bought a dog, Hell yes. Have I ever spent good money on bad bonsai, hell yes.

I just don't come here to a public forum and show you all my failures. Why would I do that?

1987



My first trident below. 1988



I was so proud of this juniper. 1993



I never even heard of candle pruning when I bought this pine. 1993



1995


1993


I can't even believe I wasted my time on these. Elm Tanuki with dead roots. I was really eager to have a deadwood bonsai. So much so I resorted to this. Trust me I know what it feels like. Trust me also when I tell you don't waste your time on shitty material. Your time deserves better!!!!
1985

 

[wireme]

Define good tree?

Is that what bonsai as discussed on internet forums has degraded to, just finding a good tree?

What happened to finding a masterpiece?

Why does the forum, present company excluded, always seem to shoot for the lowest denominator when it comes to bonsai.

I always shoot for the best. The masterpiece. Do I fail? Hell yes, more often than not. Have I ever bought a dog, Hell yes. Have I ever spent good money on bad bonsai, hell yes.

I just don't come here to a public forum and show you all my failures. Why would I do that?

View attachment 245187

My first trident below.

View attachment 245188

I was so proud of this juniper.

View attachment 245189

I never even heard of candle pruning when I bought this pine.

View attachment 245190View attachment 245191View attachment 245192

I can't even believe I wasted my time on these. Elm Tanuki with dead roots. I was really eager to have a deadwood bonsai. So much so I resorted to this. Trust me I know what it feels like. Trust me also when I tell you don't waste your time on shitty material. Your time deserves better!!!!

View attachment 245193View attachment 245194

Ok, when time permits, I’ll try.

 

[Smoke]

Ok, when time permits, I’ll try.

I don't understand your answer. I'll give it a shot though. Maybe your a busy guy. Maybe job is tough, maybe your married and have kids at home. Maybe you spend time outside and your wife is calling you in all the time and says things like, "You spend more time with those trees than you do me".

I don't know.

I don't expect you to change your life to make more expressive or artistic bonsai. Every person has to manage their life time the way they see fit. I get that. I wasn't born retired nor my kids gone by the time the graduated high school. But, they were, and bonsai for me at that point changed dramatically. I had the disposable income now to buy the better trees. I didn't have to grow them painstakingly slow, I could now afford stumps with caliper. Now I had the time to show much more expression with my trees rather than just growing them.


BUT, you knew there was going to be a but. I have been on the forums for 22 of my 36 years in bonsai. There are guys right here on this forum that were there when I came. Guys like BVF, dave4, RockM, Vance Wood and many others that don't post as much anymore. And they came to this one when the others started to go south like, Art of Bonsai, BonsaiTALK, BonsaiPAGE, Internet Bonsai Forum, Gardenweb and Bonsai Study Group, which I find the most hilarious.

It was built with like minded enthusiasts mostly all Boon Followers. Die hard Boon Followers. In fact if you didn't worship Boon you got run off by John Kirby in so many words. I've known Kirby for years and he still treated me like shit. Adair is about the only hold out from that forum that is here. Him and I don't always see eye to eye because he treats this place likes it's still Bonsai Study Group, which is a shame. I say all of this because just talking about trees and everyone agrees is boring and people look for entertainment elsewhere, which is what happened to BSG. They ran off all the normal people and only had people that agreed left, and it's demise. It's still there and I go there once and a while. No one of any knowledge is there anymore, and mostly it gives a few people a place to talk and not get beat up. I see Osoyoung there a lot so he is still active.


So Wireme, why I bring all this up is because if you don't have the time to always do what you want with the trees, when you do have the time on the net, be honest. Tell people to shoot for the moon, and tell them when they have made a bad purchase. Or are thinking about making a bad purchase. Tell them to make the best tree, not just a good tree. I want to make unbelievable trees, I may never succeed but I'm not going to lower my expectation to meet my results. NEVER!

 

[wireme]

I don't understand your answer. I'll give it a shot though. Maybe your a busy guy. Maybe job is tough, maybe your married and have kids at home. Maybe you spend time outside and your wife is calling you in all the time and says things like, "You spend more time with those trees than you do me".

I don't know.

I don't expect you to change your life to make more expressive or artistic bonsai. Every person has to manage their life time the way they see fit. I get that. I wasn't born retired nor my kids gone by the time the graduated high school. But, they were, and bonsai for me at that point changed dramatically. I had the disposable income now to buy the better trees. I didn't have to grow them painstakingly slow, I could now afford stumps with caliper. Now I had the time to show much more expression with my trees rather than just growing them.


BUT, you knew there was going to be a but. I have been on the forums for 22 of my 36 years in bonsai. There are guys right here on this forum that were there when I came. Guys like BVF, dave4, RockM, Vance Wood and many others that don't post as much anymore. And they came to this one when the others started to go south like, Art of Bonsai, BonsaiTALK, BonsaiPAGE, Internet Bonsai Forum, Gardenweb and Bonsai Study Group, which I find the most hilarious.

It was built with like minded enthusiasts mostly all Boon Followers. Die hard Boon Followers. In fact if you didn't worship Boon you got run off by John Kirby in so many words. I've known Kirby for years and he still treated me like shit. Adair is about the only hold out from that forum that is here. Him and I don't always see eye to eye because he treats this place likes it's still Bonsai Study Group, which is a shame. I say all of this because just talking about trees and everyone agrees is boring and people look for entertainment elsewhere, which is what happened to BSG. They ran off all the normal people and only had people that agreed left, and it's demise. It's still there and I go there once and a while. No one of any knowledge is there anymore, and mostly it gives a few people a place to talk and not get beat up. I see Osoyoung there a lot so he is still active.


So Wireme, why I bring all this up is because if you don't have the time to always do what you want with the trees, when you do have the time on the net, be honest. Tell people to shoot for the moon, and tell them when they have made a bad purchase. Or are thinking about making a bad purchase. Tell them to make the best tree, not just a good tree. I want to make unbelievable trees, I may never succeed but I'm not going to lower my expectation to meet my results. NEVER!

I thought you deserved an answered with a bit of thought and time behind it.

Probably more time now after the above. I am busy, working cleaning up the aftermath of tree work now. Maybe even touch a tree later. I don’t mind a minute I r two to read here during the day that’s it tilll later

 

[Smoke]

 

[zelk]

Poop!

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

For the Record and FWIW, I have purchased the Amur Maple of the OP....I will do a thread on my efforts to Transform thru Carving this excellent Example so stay tuned all......
Chuck aka Bolero

Nice! I really hope you enjoy it man. Shoot me dome pics when you recieve, im interested in seeing some different angles of it.

 

[erb.75]

...Kurt...is that you?

thought the same 2 seconds before reading your post, lol

 

[erb.75]

@Bolero
I think someone mentioned Kurt's business in another thread. I was a little surprised at what they said because my only knowledge of his business was what I saw on the FB auctions so I checked out his website. I was surprised to see a number of much higher quality trees in the pictures there. IMHO he is hurting his reputation by what he sells on the FB auctions. I think he would do well to mix in some higher quality trees with the others he sells.

edit: hurting his reputation not by selling starter plants, but for selling them for $150 clearly designed to rip people off

 

[Lorax7]

I was kidding about the name, it’s an Amur maple which is the only small leafed maple I know of that can survive here so that’s something going for it.

I’m not sure how well it will adapt to bonsai culture, but Korean maple or Korean x Japanese maple hybrid should be winter hardy in your zone. I’m currently in the process of air layering one and have noticed that the leaves miniaturize well, so at least that part of bonsai culture works like you would want it to. I started the layer early this spring before it leafed out and the tree responded by putting out smaller leaves above the layer and full size leaves below it.

 

[wireme]

Define good tree?

Is that what bonsai as discussed on internet forums has degraded to, just finding a good tree?

What happened to finding a masterpiece?

Why does the forum, present company excluded, always seem to shoot for the lowest denominator when it comes to bonsai.

I always shoot for the best. The masterpiece. Do I fail? Hell yes, more often than not. Have I ever bought a dog, Hell yes. Have I ever spent good money on bad bonsai, hell yes.

I just don't come here to a public forum and show you all my failures. Why would I do that?

1987

View attachment 245187

My first trident below. 1988

View attachment 245188

I was so proud of this juniper. 1993

View attachment 245189

I never even heard of candle pruning when I bought this pine. 1993

View attachment 245190

1995
View attachment 245191

1993
View attachment 245192

I can't even believe I wasted my time on these. Elm Tanuki with dead roots. I was really eager to have a deadwood bonsai. So much so I resorted to this. Trust me I know what it feels like. Trust me also when I tell you don't waste your time on shitty material. Your time deserves better!!!!
1985
View attachment 245193View attachment 245194

Alrighty then.

The trees you showed above, well I’d be happy to play with the 1993 pine. Might have a hard time tossing the rest but would really want them either.

First I’d like to point out that last time I gave you my opinion you first laughed at me then “rewarded me with wisdom” (which I did read and think about) then told me I didn’t understand how trees grow, called me a youngster and bundled that all up by calling it tough love that my father should have given me.

Urg, you go on about wanting respect, I’ve been scolded for not showing respect when doing nothing more than trying hold a conversation without rolling on my belly and saying yes sir before but I’ve never talked to anyone like that, not even close. I sure hope not. I’ve been condescended at an awful lot here too, it’s much less frequent than it used to be but I’m never going to like it. People get worked up here about others not taking advice, being know-it all’s and refusing to learn from others. Well, I’ve put in a lot of effort to learn from others. If I were to pick someone who’s advice and writing I’ve followed the most then let’s just say he also voiced the opinion that a good tree could be made. It’s been insinuated that he’s lying about that, brutal.

On more point, I do actually own an Amur with half of the trunk deadwood. I make no claims of great material, inspired design or vision or that I will make it something wonderful but at least I’ve had and watched one. Do I get relevant experience points?

With that off my chest, silly I know but hell, can’t help it sometimes I’ll answer the question.

A good tree is hard to define. I’ll say though that I very sincerely see a great merit in enjoyment and appreciation of mediocre trees. I’ve got a couple friends who recently moved to town from a warmer place and they bring me their Japanese larch to overwinter every year. These two started the trees in a half day workshop, eventually took the wires off and occasionally prune something here and there. The trees are badly wire scarred, never been repotted, pretty cliche form. Stand 15 feet back and squint and they look pretty cool. The owners enjoy them, no stress no pressure, I think it’s great, good for them.

In my yard the material ranges from this...

To this...

With a lot of everything between. I could have a yard full of the former, I think it would be sad to get to the point where only the best most awesome material can bring enjoyment and satisfaction. I often question the desire to continue amassing the greatest material possible. Very hard to explain why, I will keep collecting trees I’m sure but I don’t want to be rabid about it.

 

[wireme]

Here’s an example of one that’s pretty borderline keeper for me. Of course it will never be some amazing masterpiece. Why should I not enjoy it and the process anyways? Recognize it? It’s what has become of a forum contest tree that we both took part in, you’ve suppressed the memory of the results probably?.
There’s a bit of a base that’s alright there, currently being ground layered. It’s the tiny, tiny needles that I love about the plant.

If I have a message here I would say that enjoyment and appreciation of inconsequential material in no way at all takes anything away from great works. Be the best you can, great, encourage others to do the same, great, let people enjoy the small simple pleasures as well, there is no threat.

I think I finally figured out why you get worked up over this. You think it’s crab barrel mentality, people can’t climb out of the bucket so they drag others down to their level? Coming back to that maple well, if Walter likes it he’s only reaching down and pulling people up. As for me, I do think there’s a chance of a reall actual good tree, not great, but good enough for many benches, definitely mine.

In case you think I’m a crab not wanting people to have good material because I can’t then here. Also remember telling me to get a better job so I could afford to get material worth working on? You called that encouragement.

 

[wireme]

Great!

 

[wireme]

View attachment 245212

I imagine you want to see work done as usual?

You might be skeptical of some, can’t blame ya, I am too but feeling good about most. Some just need another couple rounds and of course potting. Current pics too, today as they sit with no prettying up for pics.

 

[wireme]

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[wireme]

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[wireme]

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