One of these Seigens is not like the other...

[leatherback]

it is very difficult to say what it is. Most probably it is a graft, as there are no branches / backbudding in the lower part.
And when i bought it, there was a second B-Seigen next to the one i bought and there it was clearly to see that it was a graft.

i ll do a pic in the coming days.

So why do you conclude that seigens root strongly?

First of all, you did not propagate one, but just repot, and now you say it is not on its own roots?

 

[zita]

So why do you conclude that seigens root strongly?

i do not as i have no Seigen

First of all, you did not propagate one, but just repot,

yes

and now you say it is not on its own roots?

i said i dont know.

maybe i am writing strange, as my english is limited.
when i wrote about rooting, i thought that means the roots are growing well.

in a summary: the roots that got cut back in spring did grow well and are longer & stronger than prior. Placed full sun.
It is a B-Seigen not sure graftet or whatever.

 

[boonefrog]

2nd flush summer growth on my "East coast Seigens" ... looks a little more like my Seigen from Maplestone, leaf lobes are thinner, more finely serrate, which I felt the mature foliage was missing. Still, larger leaves for sure.

 

[zita]

very interesting.
i made the very same observation on my b-seigens 2nd flush / backbudding.

less deshojo-like..............that said my deshojoos 2nd flush is also less deshojo-like and sharper looking...

so, it will be interesting how these leaves will develope over the next few weeks

 

[Dan W.]

very interesting.
i made the very same observation on my b-seigens 2nd flush / backbudding.

less deshojo-like..............that said my deshojoos 2nd flush is also less deshojo-like and sharper looking...

so, it will be interesting how these leaves will develope over the next few weeks

I’m sorry if I missed an explanation earlier in this thread, but what is a b-Seigen? Is that short for something else?

 

[zita]

sorry, the conclusion is that you have to read this thread to understand, or if you did already, again

..

mine is not like the other

 

[Dan W.]

There are also trees listed as ‘Beni seigen’, so it can get rather confusing.

I do see now where it looks like you made up a name for the one that you have, and shortened it to b-seigen.

 

[Dan W.]

Here’s one just to add to the fun of this thread.
In all of the years of Kokufu dating back to Kokufu 37 in 1963, I’ve seen all of ONE tree listed as the cultivar ‘Beni seigen’.
And Vertrees book mentions that ‘Corallinum’ is sometimes called ‘Beni seigen’.
Other than these two places I haven’t seen anything else on the cultivar. Does anyone have additional info?

This pic is from Kokufu 93.

 

[zita]

and "the ONE" has no leaves for extended guess about the shape of them...

May be it is a normal seigen and they just got tired of spelling the prename again and again for no reason. (red)
Like Maiko instead of Beni Maiko or Atro instead of Atropurpureum etc

 

[Dan W.]

and "the ONE" has no leaves for extended guess about the shape of them...

May be it is a normal seigen and they just got tired of spelling the prename again and again for no reason. (red)
Like Maiko instead of Beni Maiko or Atro instead of Atropurpureum etc

I wondered the same, but I kind of doubt it. There are many Seigen’s in the Kokufu before and after this; even in the same album.
Yes, leaves would be wonderful to see.

 

[Yamamomiji]

紅 (beni, kurenai, momi) means red pigment, deep red or even crimson or purple colour as @zita suggests. It can be used synonymously with 赤 (aka) sometimes, which also means red (basic) colour, but not in all instances (for Prunus mume it would be 紅梅花 red flowered plum flowers and never 赤梅花).

Japanese colours or how Japanese people perceive them can and is sometimes different to the Western habits: https://www.japaneseprofessor.com/lessons/beginning/colors-in-japanese/

 

[clem]

Here’s one just to add to the fun of this thread.
In all of the years of Kokufu dating back to Kokufu 37 in 1963, I’ve seen all of ONE tree listed as the cultivar ‘Beni seigen’.
And Vertrees book mentions that ‘Corallinum’ is sometimes called ‘Beni seigen’.
Other than these two places I haven’t seen anything else on the cultivar. Does anyone have additional info?

This pic is from Kokufu 93.

Thank you for this intersting post, reseach and picture

I asked my japanese friend a few questions about "Beniseigen" word :
Hello, I have a question regarding a Kokufu Japanese maple : look at this pic, it is written : "Beniseigen" cultivar.. I know "Seigen", "Beni chidori", "Beni Tsukasa" cultivars, but i don't know this "Beniseigen" cultivar. Do you know it ? Is it normal that there is no space between "Beni and seigen" ? Is the cultivar "Beniseigen" different from "Seigen" ? What does mean "Beni" ?

Here is her answer :

Shisho, Beni means red. So, Beniseigen means red Seigen. In Japanese we don't separate words with spaces. So, for example, if I write "I like bonsai very much.", in Japanese I write "私は盆栽が大好きです。" You see there are no spaces among letters.

 

[Dan W.]

Thank you for checking with your friend. Yeah, I’ve known that “Beni” means red. What I think we need is a Japanese bonsai/maple expert, to figure out why they chose to describe this as Red seigen as opposed to just Seigen.

 

[Dan W.]

紅 (beni, kurenai, momi) means red pigment, deep red or even crimson or purple colour as @zita suggests. It can be used synonymously with 赤 (aka) sometimes, which also means red (basic) colour, but not in all instances (for Prunus mume it would be 紅梅花 red flowered plum flowers and never 赤梅花).

Japanese colours or how Japanese people perceive them can and is sometimes different to the Western habits: https://www.japaneseprofessor.com/lessons/beginning/colors-in-japanese/

Thank you
Do you have any idea why they would choose to describe this tree specifically as Red/Beni seigen rather than simply Seigen as they do with all of the others? Different known cultivar? Unique traits of this particular Seigen?

 

[Yamamomiji]

@Dan W. As far as I am aware, putting the adjective Beni in front of Seigen could hint to parts of the red colour of the bark which it shares with cultivars like Sangokaku of the Corallinum group. It might be a further distinction of a modification of the original cultivar with additional features like red bark or for other trees like a cork bark.

But I have only heard that might be a thing to do but not found any written proof that is always used in that way.

 

[zita]

my b-seigen was beautiful red with yellow veines in spring.
2nd grow with the bad weather is red only and an overall mess

 

[clem]

Thank you for checking with your friend. Yeah, I’ve known that “Beni” means red. What I think we need is a Japanese bonsai/maple expert, to figure out why they chose to describe this as Red seigen as opposed to just Seigen.

I asked her, if it is a variant of the famous Seigen cultivar or another cultivar, and for her, it is a variant of Seigen.. But that's just her opinion.

@William N. Valavanis is a maple expert, maybe he'll come here..

 

[Canada Bonsai]

I reached out to 3 specialist maple growers in Japan who each have 3-4 decades of experience, as well as a bonsai pro who said he might know where that specific tree is right now

I'll report back asap

 

[Canada Bonsai]

紅清玄 (beni seigen) and 清玄 (seigen) are the same. Seigen has been documented using several other synonyms too:

赤地錦（アカジニシキ）in 1688
青海波（セイカイハ) unconfirmed date
せいがいは（セイガイ^）in 1695
せいがい（セイガイ）in 1698
青海（セイガイ）in 1713
静涯（セイガイ）in 1894

 

[leatherback]

Just realized my phone takes great pictures, untill you drop them into a browser on your laptop. All vibrance and popping color are gone. But these are on the same tree..